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Life has surface noise! - British DJ John Peel

Author Topic: Third Man Records & Document teaming up  (Read 5255 times)

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Offline bnemerov

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2013, 08:59:55 AM »
Hello all,
This discussion has strayed from the title---and is more interesting for it.
Some pieces that I'd like to comment on: 180 gm vinyl---it is a better medium because, being thicker, it allows for a deeper groove. Record grooves in the 78 era were either lateral cut (side-to-side as favored by most American and British companies) or vertical cut (hill-and-dale as done by Pathe and that great contrarian Edison).

As well expressed earlier, the "wiggle" in the groove is the analog of the sound waves captured by the microphone, or recording horn in the purely acoustic era.

With the advent of stereo microgroove recording (i.e. LPs), both modes were employed to give two discrete playback programs...so the 180 gram vinyl allows for a more robust vertical signal.

As for Document: When Johnnie Parth, the well-known Austrian jazz collector, started the labels Wolf and Document, his plan was for Document to issue re-recordings of the entire Godrich & Dixon discography, at 1st on LP.

"Best available source" wasn't important to Parth. I know that several collectors (and institutions) sent him cassette tape of their 78s. This accounts for the wide disparity in quality of the individual tracks---sometimes the source was a ragged-out 78; sometimes the collector had a bad tape deck or turntable.
Lots of variables here.

I know less about the Scots couple who bought the business from Parth, though when I was in charge of the recorded sound collection at the Center for Popular Music, I ordered dozens of their CD issues of Parth's original programs (by artist, following G&D sequence). They were very nice and easy to deal with, but the CDs replicated all of the LP sonic flaws.
With the small number of these sold, a Sony-type Robert Johnson remastering expense is not feasible, I'd guess.

As for Jack White's operation just up the road from me, all I can say is it seems to be aimed at the twenty-something hipsters who like the White Stripes and all else Jack does. He can afford to indulge himself in anything (almost) that takes his fancy.
But as for getting pristine source material from Document?-- Probably not.

best,
bruce

Offline Rivers

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2013, 09:03:14 AM »
Hmm. The old 'treat your customers like mushrooms' strategy. Doesn't sound very promising, does it? Actually more like PT Barnum on mushrooms. :))

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Offline misterjones

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2013, 09:16:55 AM »
If I had the bucks and wanted to indulge myself, I would try to team up with Yazoo to update and reissue some of their LPs.  I've seen Yazoo LP reissues advertised - they may even be on 180g vinyl - but I have the same problem with those as I do with the Third Man Records LPs (namely, trying to determine what the LPs are sourced from).  I'm not even sure they are Yazoo-authorized releases.  By the way, with 180g vinyl, must I have a 180g-compatible needle for the deeper groove?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 09:18:50 AM by misterjones »

Offline bnemerov

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2013, 09:27:12 AM »
no, misterjones.
No special needle or cartridge or anything on the tone-arm end of the turntable is needed to playback 180 gram or other "audiophile" discs.
Of course the better your turntable, amp and, especially, speakers are, the more you'll notice the improvement.

And I'm not aware of Yazoo vinyl re-releases...if they are done by Yazoo, they're probably pretty great.
Rich Nevins (owner of Yazoo and Shanachie) is a serious 78 collector and famously-fussy about remastering quality.

best,
bruce

Offline Stuart

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2013, 09:40:52 AM »
And I'm not aware of Yazoo vinyl re-releases...if they are done by Yazoo, they're probably pretty great.
Rich Nevins (owner of Yazoo and Shanachie) is a serious 78 collector and famously-fussy about remastering quality.

They're out there:

http://www.forcedexposure.com/labels/yazoo.html

http://beta.forcedexposure.com/Labels/YAZOO.html

The catalog lists LP and CD formats of various albums.

I don't know anything about them--looks like an aftermarket/third party re-issue. Perhaps it would be best to ask Rich.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 09:44:32 AM by Stuart »

Offline bnemerov

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2013, 10:20:11 AM »
stuart,
It looks like a legit Yazoo product (same artwork; same issue #s), but not remastered---just a repressing (on heavier vinyl) of the original Yazoo LPs. Amazon has them.
Whether Yazoo went back to the tapes and had new stampers made or used the stampers from the original run of LPs makes no difference....heavy vinyl or no, the sound quality will be no better than the original LPs.

The Yazoo CDs DO sound better (despite digital drawbacks previously mentioned) than the original LPs. So if the CD masters were used to make new stampers, I guess this run of vinyl could be better. Quien sabe?

best,
bruce
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 10:24:09 AM by bnemerov »

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2013, 10:33:15 AM »
Bruce, thanks for the lowdown on 180 gr vinyl.

I thought the "Yazoo" vinyl reissues were not from Yazoo despite the cover art and logo. Thought they were bootlegs from Scorpio, but the Amazon listing for one McTell LP says Hi Horse Records: http://www.amazon.com/Early-Years-1927-1933-Willie-Mctell/dp/B0084O8OJS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1359743533&sr=8-6&keywords=blind+willie+mctell+vinyl

Offline bnemerov

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2013, 10:50:24 AM »
Unca Bud---

Yikes! very confusing....the 180 gram issues (see Amazon's vinyl Blind Willie Johnson, "Praise God I'm Satisfied") say Yazoo as issuing company.
http://www.amazon.com/Praise-God-Satisfied-Gram-Vinyl/dp/B00ASBH5IG/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_t_2_5N5F

McTell reissue makes no mention of 180 gram pressing. Bootleg pressing? Looks like it.

caveat emptor, fer sure.
best,
bruce
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 10:56:27 AM by bnemerov »

Offline misterjones

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2013, 10:57:54 AM »
Weren't the original Yazoo CDs - e.g., Jefferson's "King of the Country Blues" - mere digital reproductions (with no remastering) of their LPs?  Were the original Yazoo LPs remastered at all?

I'm not sure what could have been done back in those days =- other than turning the treble down - but about 15 years ago I listened to the early (1970s) Milestone LPs of BLJ and I don't recall hearing an excessive amount of surface noise.  (The Milestone CD version in the early 1990s indicated NoNoise was used, but I think that was only for the CD.)

Offline bnemerov

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2013, 11:18:30 AM »
hey misterjones--
Weren't the original Yazoo CDs - e.g., Jefferson's "King of the Country Blues" - mere digital reproductions (with no remastering) of their LPs? 
I don't think so, the CDs came out after Nevins bought the company and he did do some sonic work on the original tapes made from the 78s.
Were the original Yazoo LPs remastered at all?
 When Nick Perls started Yazoo in NYC, as you say, not much was possible other than a good clean 78, the proper stylus and a very good turntable and tape deck. Perls had all this.

I'm not sure what could have been done back in those days =- other than turning the treble down - but about 15 years ago I listened to the early (1970s) Milestone LPs of BLJ and I don't recall hearing an excessive amount of surface noise.  (The Milestone CD version in the early 1990s indicated NoNoise was used, but I think that was only for the CD.)
Right, NoNoise was for the CD---the technology didn't exist until Lucas made the 1st Star Wars film (the technology was a spin-off). Like you, I love the Milestone transfers of BLJ---still my favorite. The LPs were made from the metal parts, I think. Someone at Fantasy Records (Orin Keepnews or his brother Peter?) acquired the original 78 stampers somehow, I've been told. This may only be Audio Engineer Folklore, though.

best,
bruce

Offline misterjones

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2013, 11:33:17 AM »
Milestone's BLJs seem to have taken many forms.  Which are the ones you prefer?  This is the one I listened to:



I don't think the CD version is very good.

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2013, 11:45:33 AM »
I just bought the "Bundle" from 3rd Man... $40 plus shipping...
 8) 8) :)
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Offline misterjones

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2013, 11:49:11 AM »
I just bought the "Bundle" from 3rd Man... $40 plus shipping...
 8) 8) :)

If you or anyone else could do a "side-by-side" comparison of these vs quality CD issues and report your observations, it would be appreciated.

Offline eric

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2013, 12:38:26 PM »
I seem to recall an apocryphal story of Nick Perls manually splicing clicks out of the tapes...
--
Eric

Offline Stuart

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Re: Third Man Records & Document teaming up
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2013, 12:59:50 PM »
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