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Author Topic: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)  (Read 7912 times)

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Offline misterjones

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2013, 07:00:04 PM »
Charley Patton's wedding . . . presided over by Gates?  Well, if you gotta dream, dream big.  (I think if that were the case, I'd want a framed copy on my wall.)

Offline wreid75

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2013, 08:38:04 PM »
"Must been a respected man in the community at least. "
must have been a respected in the black community that was either white (with the largest set of stones) to be that casual with a black woman in public, or he was mixed and and just one of the gang.  He is easily the most pale thing in the picture

Offline maddoggirl

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2013, 09:43:22 AM »
As far as the New Jerusalem MB Church, it's still there: ( ) although in an expanded form to what it was probably like in the 1920s. Using Google Streetview you can see it from a distance, but you can't make out much.

Could it be possible that the name was misspelt slightly? There is a Sim's Chapel on Sim's Chapel Rd, Benton County MS ( ). Unfortunately relatively little of this region has been added to Google Streetview, and I haven't managed to dig up any photos, so it's impossible to compare the sites/buildings. Of course, I am fully aware that the "Semmes Chapel" of the photo may no longer exist or have changed it's name several times since then. This site : http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=2195335 lists some graves there and, while one obviously doesn't like to make assumptions, the details suggest it is a black church (the names of the deceased and their families, plus details such as one elderly lady having worked as a domestic worker, as well as the fact that the area is majority black)

To be honest, originally I thought the likelihood of the man in the picture being Charlie Patton was almost preposterously small, but now... well, we know he visited the New Jerusalem MB, and this Sim's Chapel is only 35 miles down the line. We are in Patton's neck of the woods  - towns mentioned in his songs such as Marion and Hernando are within 50 miles of this place.
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Offline Rivers

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »
Studying the blow-up tonight, which I find endlessly interesting, I made some observations not yet articulated, I might have missed them though:

I made a very rough count left to right and quit about halfway, estimate around 200 women, men and kids total in that shot.  3 mules and a wagon.
Likely many more inside, you can see silhouettes of people inside.
All or most of the guys have their hats off, the ladies do not as is customary.
There's a guy to the right of the building's door who seems to be fooling with his hat with his left hand and and toasting with his right, could be holding up a bottle, hard to tell from here.
There are four gentlemen to the preacher's left who are distinctly stepped forward a couple of paces from the throng.
Likewise there's a lone gentleman to his right who is similarly stepped forward.

Assuming it was a wedding for a moment. If she was standing to his left before sitting down on his right knee, which would be natural enough, the four guys would be, traditionally, the bride's party. Equally likely the groom's though. Usually, but not always, the bride is on the left, groom on right. This 'rule' is broken at weddings every day so I don't give it much credence.

The building has two windows on the door end and four on the right side, likely the same on the other side from the bits you can see. You can also see one window at the far end, so probably symmetrical window layout.

The picture seems to be significantly overexposed to the left, low to the horizon, and the mules are in a shady grove. Assuming that was caused by the sun, and not an accident in the darkroom developing tank, by my back-of-a-cig-packet calculations if it was taken in the early morning that would indicate the building is aligned roughly north - south with the photographer's point of view facing southeast-ish (depending on time of year but you get the idea). If it was taken in the late afternoon it would indicate roughly east - west, with the point-of view facing west. Ish.

Looks kind of misty, looking out past the mules and at the generally diffuse nature of the light, with no noticeable hard shadows being cast by the folks in front. Photography has come a long way since then so probably very hard to prove either way. I don't know the area but if it's like everywhere else mist is more likely in the morning, the sun burns it off. I'm not saying it's misty though, it just appears to be misty.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 08:14:26 PM by Rivers »

Offline slideaway

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2013, 09:32:08 PM »
I find it interesting the number of children present and indeed front and centre in sunday best .. is there an equivalent of confirmation for the members of baptist or methodist church of times? also the gentlemen with hat at back is holding what seems to be a rolled up piece of paper, almost in a celebratory way?, as do a few people including children here and there .. are some holding hankerchiefs? would indicate summer? .. thanks for posting a photo with tantalising possibility!

Offline yogi

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2013, 12:56:29 AM »
The little girl in a white dress, fourth person to yhe left of the man sitting down, is she white?

Edit: The man just to the right of and slightly behind of the man with the book, is he wearing a ribbon over his left shoulder?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 01:01:41 AM by yogi »

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2013, 03:45:37 PM »
She is as I would imagine Rosetta to be as a child.
When was Rosetta Patton born?,

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Offline Rivers

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2013, 05:15:11 PM »
1918 or thereabouts, according to some very quick googling. I have no idea of the reliability of this but if she was 84 in 2001.... scroll down to the last paragraph. http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_46/access.html

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2013, 07:18:17 PM »
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Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2013, 04:55:08 AM »
Just noticed that the young man on right standing forward and young man on left standing forward are dressed alike. They look like a team.. or twins
.
Could be security or maybe Preachers in training.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 04:57:03 AM by Randy Meadows »
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Offline yogi

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2013, 05:56:01 AM »
A couple of paces to the right from the man with the book i another man with a book. What kind of books that size would be present in a small community? The Bible? Census? Educational?
Who would carry a ribbon like the guy in the centre and what would it represent? Church? State? Municipality?

Offline TonyGilroy

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2013, 06:34:09 AM »
Just noticed that the young man on right standing forward and young man on left standing forward are dressed alike. They look like a team.. or twins
.
Could be security or maybe Preachers in training.


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Offline dj

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2013, 07:29:50 AM »
Quote
The man just to the right of and slightly behind of the man with the book, is he wearing a ribbon over his left shoulder?

I think that's the lapel of the man's suit and just below it the side of a chair or bench.

Quote
A couple of paces to the right from the man with the book is another man with a book.

Speculation earlier in the thread is that was a church register of births, deaths, and marriages in the congregation.  That's just speculation, though.

Offline misterjones

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2013, 09:19:27 AM »
Perhaps this has been addressed, but . . .

The man to the right (our right) of the presumed preacher (holding the big book) is holding a book  and his hat.  He appears to be showing the book to the camera.  It appears to have writing on it (in white letters).  Perhaps you can try playing with lights and contrast to make the letters a bit clearer.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 09:22:55 AM by misterjones »

Offline Rivers

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2013, 12:03:29 PM »
misterjones, on many broswers, including chrome, ie and firefox, you can blow stuff up by pressing control + on your keyboard. I just did that, took it up to 300%. Looks to me like something was written on it, maybe in ink actually on the print, and it's been removed.

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