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Author Topic: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)  (Read 7951 times)

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Offline onewent

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2013, 04:04:33 PM »
Quote
I zoomed in and the cross seems to be in line with a rip or tear in the photo.

Upon closer inspection, in your latest scan, the cross seems to rest on a shield with another (cross?) symbol on it running on the diagonal.  Coat of Arms/symbol for a church denomination in the area where you believe the event/photo took place? 

Quote
There's a Sims Chapel Road in Michigan City (actually in the surrounding countryside) which you can view on Google Earth. Still has a chapel on it.

And it's the only structure on the road (it's a short road), and if you remove the addition on the one side, the shape of the structure is a lot like the shape of the bldg in the photo. 

Interesting...

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2013, 11:08:16 PM »
That seems to be roofing tin over the bottom part of the window with a small cross cut out of it, possibly to see out of..
The right side window also has a slat of tin to be lowered to covere the botton, but I don't see a cross on that one.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:44:20 AM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2013, 11:24:04 AM »
The preacher resembles Rev. JM Gates.
He would pose for this kind of photo.
But Gates was in Chicago aroud 1926-1928
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:26:13 AM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline dj

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2013, 11:28:52 AM »
The hairline isn't Gates' at all.

Offline wreid75

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
Wouldn't be out of order for Gates to make it down from up north.  Preachers traveled as much as bluesmen.  Is it him, lets look at the various pics we have.

Offline wreid75

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2013, 01:53:13 PM »
Hairline isn't exactly spot on in any of the above, and well, many of us know that hairlines change O0

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2013, 02:41:56 PM »
Gates is credited with introducing the gospel music of former blues artist Thomas A. Dorsey into the black gospel market via his crusades. His funeral drew the largest crowd of any memorial service in the city (Atlanta)  before Martin Luther King, Jr.


« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:55:08 PM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline misterjones

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2013, 02:53:10 PM »
I think I see John Wilkes Booth all the way in the back (behind the grassy knoll).

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 04:00:18 AM »
Well.... In fairness, there are alot of people in this photo...
They gotta be somebody...
It may just be a small church of folks that never left the area and were never known...

But I doubt it..
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater....
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Online TonyGilroy

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 04:33:49 AM »

Randy,

I raised this point earlier but what about the date of this photo and Patton's age. In 1925 he'd have been 34 and this guy looks much younger to me.

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 04:59:37 AM »
The wording on the photo title is (circa 1920)
It just seems to me to be mid to late 1920s judging by the attire...
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Offline dj

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 05:09:14 AM »
Quote
It may just be a small church of folks that never left the area and were never known...

Bingo.  Got it in one.

Quote
But I doubt it...

I don't know why I'm still arguing about this, but here goes:

Look, there are thousands of churches in the United States, and virtually every one of them has had one or more pictures of the congregation gathered together standing in front of the church.  These pictures are filled with folks that were never famous, never known to the world outside their family and community.  Without any documentary evidence, this is another one of those pictures.  It may have been taken on the occasion of  the congregation's moving to a new building.  It may have been the 60th anniversary of emancipation and the congregation is honoring it's three members who were born in slavery.  It may have just been that an enterprising photographer offered to take the picture and sell it to members of the congregation at 10 cents a pop.  But you have to start from the assumption that this is just a bunch of local people whom the world at large has never heard of. 

Saying this doesn't diminish the significance of the photograph at all.  It's a wonderful picture, and a window which allows us to look into the past, even if we don't necessarily know the significance of everything and everyone in the photo.  It may be the Reverend J. M. Gates holding what we assume is a Bible, with Thomas A. Dorsey standing on the chapel steps, Charlie Patton sitting with Louise Johnson on his lap, Son House and Willie Brown standing beside him, a young Robert Johnson standing in the front row, and Geechie Wiley looking out the chapel window, but if it is, it really isn't more historically significant than if it's just a bunch of "folks that never left the area".  In a sense, you're deprecating the unknown folks by assuming that they have no worth unless they're someone who's known to history.

They're people.  It was some kind of important occasion for them.  That's all we know, and that's enough.

Unless some documentary evidence appears to give us any more information about this photograph, I'm done talking about it.     

Offline CF

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 06:30:06 AM »
But you have to start from the assumption that this is just a bunch of local people whom the world at large has never heard of. 

Saying this doesn't diminish the significance of the photograph at all.  It's a wonderful picture, and a window which allows us to look into the past, even if we don't necessarily know the significance of everything and everyone in the photo.  It may be the Reverend J. M. Gates holding what we assume is a Bible, with Thomas A. Dorsey standing on the chapel steps, Charlie Patton sitting with Louise Johnson on his lap, Son House and Willie Brown standing beside him, a young Robert Johnson standing in the front row, and Geechie Wiley looking out the chapel window, but if it is, it really isn't more historically significant than if it's just a bunch of "folks that never left the area".  In a sense, you're deprecating the unknown folks by assuming that they have no worth unless they're someone who's known to history.

They're people.  It was some kind of important occasion for them.  That's all we know, and that's enough.

Unless some documentary evidence appears to give us any more information about this photograph, I'm done talking about it.     

Now this is some sound reasoning DJ, well stated & argued.
It's a wonderful picture & we're lucky to have it but the knee-jerk impulse to see what is actually a pretty small community of musical/historical figures in every single period photo discovered or discussed is very tiring. Also slightly racist & poor academic reasoning.
Once again, a wonderful image & let's enjoy it for that alone until more information allows us to perceive Patton Where's Waldos.
Keep up the good discovery work Randy, it's fascinating stuff for sure.
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Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 07:23:40 AM »
Quote
Look, there are thousands of churches in the United States, and virtually every one of them has had one or more pictures of the congregation gathered together standing in front of the church.  These pictures are filled with folks that were never famous, never known to the world outside their family and community.  Without any documentary evidence, this is another one of those pictures.  It may have been taken on the occasion of  the congregation's moving to a new building.  It may have been the 60th anniversary of emancipation and the congregation is honoring it's three members who were born in slavery.  It may have just been that an enterprising photographer offered to take the picture and sell it to members of the congregation at 10 cents a pop.  But you have to start from the assumption that this is just a bunch of local people whom the world at large has never heard of. 

Saying this doesn't diminish the significance of the photograph at all.  It's a wonderful picture, and a window which allows us to look into the past, even if we don't necessarily know the significance of everything and everyone in the photo.  It may be the Reverend J. M. Gates holding what we assume is a Bible, with Thomas A. Dorsey standing on the chapel steps, Charlie Patton sitting with Louise Johnson on his lap, Son House and Willie Brown standing beside him, a young Robert Johnson standing in the front row, and Geechie Wiley looking out the chapel window, but if it is, it really isn't more historically significant than if it's just a bunch of "folks that never left the area".  In a sense, you're deprecating the unknown folks by assuming that they have no worth unless they're someone who's known to history.


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Offline Stumblin

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 07:53:32 AM »
Once again, a wonderful image & let's enjoy it for that alone until more information allows us to perceive Patton Where's Waldos.
Keep up the good discovery work Randy, it's fascinating stuff for sure.
I wonder why it's "Where's Waldo" in the US, but "Where's Wally" in the UK. Presumably it has to do with the relative frequency of the names within each cultural area. I have never met anyone called Waldo, although I've heard of Ralph Waldo Emerson. However, in what feels like quite a long time on Earth in the UK, I have only ever met one person called Wally and that was a nickname unrelated to his real name.

Closer to the original topic, I don't recall ever having seen a photo of Rev. Gates before, his appearance changed quite a lot between photos, eh?

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