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'Race' records of the 1920's revealed only too obviously that the chastity projected by spirituals or groups like the Fisk Jubilee Singers did not truly reflect black social values, any more than Pat Boone represents the typical American male - Steve Calt's notes, Bo Carter, Banana In Your Fruit Basket, Yazoo

Author Topic: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)  (Read 7860 times)

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Offline oversee

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 11:33:59 AM »
Just seen this, the guy seated is tall with a long upper body.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM »
I agree with oversee, the guy in the picture looks well over a six-footer, and Patton was supposed to be a little guy.

Offline gtrworkshp

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 12:20:01 PM »
There are actually two very different photos of Patton. When we were putting together the Calt/Wardlow Patton book at Shanachie we had a problem of which to include on the cover. There is of course the Paramount photo of Patton. But there is another that Steve and Gayle found that looks nothing like the Paramount photo. The dilemma was that when Gayle and Steve were gathering their info for the book they would show both photos to people that knew Patton. Few if any recognized the Paramount photo but all recognized the other photo that had the appearance almost of a Sicilian! After much debate we agreed to use the Paramount photo on the cover and on Page 2 we featured the other photo. Which brings me to the photo in this thread. For those of you who have the Patton book check both photos and in some ways the man sitting on the chair seems like a compromise between both photos! It could easily be Patton. Great God Almighty!

Offline harriet

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 01:28:45 PM »
A link to the photo and a previous discussion is here, includes reports on Patton's height. I also noticed that the man in the photo is tall: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=3084.0


Offline oversee

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 01:39:55 PM »
Either there were two Pattons, he was abducted by aliens and had his DNA scrambled or the painter had a whole lotta license.

Offline harriet

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 02:27:29 PM »
Be funny  :( if neither were him. It raises doubts that people who were shown the one everyone thinks is him didn't recognize him.Misfiled photo or one used because there were no photos of him?

Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 04:02:12 PM »
A few points that I see are:
He is unique in the photo. There is an extremely large crowd, even for a wedding back then. People got married every week, Im sure. If this was a common event, as some of you suggest, You would think we would see more photos like this out there, which is not the case...  The suit is the same style as the studio shot. Same color, design,etc... These guys didn't have a whole wardrobe of suits... They had one or two at best...and he considered this one his best, if it's him...

It is possible that Patton was the "Entertainment" for the wedding and called the Bride to sit on his knee before the photo.... leaving the Groom standing alone on the left...(or right)
The fact that he is sitting, almost like in a saloon, while everyone else seems to be standing, as a congregation, supporting the preacher... (An act of defiance, so to speak) Maybe he wanted to use this shot for a record cover or publicity shot.... He was a musician and a man of many tricks...

If this is mid 1920s or late 1920s, -
take a look at the guy behind the Preacher's left elbow....( directly to the man's left that is sitting). He looks familiar. (Pinstripe suit)

Either way, I love the photo... It's a great piece of history..
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 03:37:37 AM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 05:43:13 PM »

« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:14:15 PM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline Randy Meadows

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 06:34:11 PM »
Re: Wardlow's response about Charlie Patton portrait photo
? Reply #24 on: March 05, 2011, 04:48:00 PM ?QuoteBlues
Fans-Let me tell you the story behind the portrait. I was talking to Hayes McMulland and Willie Moore in Sumner in 1967 and they both said a woman who just died on this plantation has a photo of Patton.  I said let's go down to the house and look at it. When I got there the grandaughter had the portrait and it was in two pieces.
    I said to Hayes that can't be Charlie. He said "that's naturally him Mr Wardlow. He looked just like one of those Mexicans when I knew him.  He always had a mustache too when I played with him."  The grandaughter said her grandmother dated/married  Patton in about 1910 and the photo was taken in Oxford in the hill country and was then made into a portrait.   He would have been about 20 when this relatiionship occurred. He left her and broke her heart and she never married again but kept the portrait til she died.[
 You will notice that the ears look the same and just below the bottom lip to the chin is the same indentation.  I have somewhere on one of the Hayes or Moore tapes one of them declaring it was Patton when has about 20 to 24 years old as I thought no one will believe this is PAtton.  It was retouched from a photo to a portrait and the hair doesn't look kinky as a black man has. But Hayes always said Mr Wardlow if that man hadn't had kinky hair he could have passed for white. Also remember Howlin' Wolf has been quoted as saying Patton looked like a Puerto Rician.
        It would have been foolish for me to try and pass off a photo of some Italian as Patton. What would I have gained from that. Nothing but criticism. I only wanted to show hosw he looked in his very early 20s.  But Hayes and Mooore  both said that Charlie Patton when he was young.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:35:35 PM by RSKKZ- Randy Meadows »
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Offline Rivers

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 06:36:10 PM »
This has been a very interesting thread, thanks.

There are actually two very different photos of Patton. When we were putting together the Calt/Wardlow Patton book at Shanachie we had a problem of which to include on the cover.

Hey thanks for posting gw, and welcome to wc.com

Just ever so slightly off topic, apologies Randy, but I have a question. Do you happen to know whether the Wardlow-Calt Patton book will ever come back into print? I loaned my dogeared copy out a few years ago to a guitar playing acquaintance and never saw it, or him, again. It's one of the more entertaining and thought-provoking books in the genre I think.

Offline Rivers

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 06:45:12 PM »
Thanks for the composite there. Patton, or the pictures that we generally accept as being him, probably, has a very high forehead. I'm not seeing that in the wedding shot. Also iin the classic shots he has a side parting, the wedding guy seems to have a center parting. I've been known to sport both at various times so doesn't prove anything.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:48:07 PM by Rivers »

Offline judge

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 09:16:30 PM »
This post was interesting enough for me to join.  First impression was it looked very much like Patton and for me that still holds true.  A few comments: That seems to be a common suit coat style of the day. Bowtie may be more unique to him. The paramount ad sitting picture is presumed taken by Patton in advance knowing he was to be recording for Laibly. In that sitting picture, the coat/wardrobe could be borrowed and the hair could have been styled by the photographer in a 'bluesy' look; and hair recedes.
He looks tall. The crowd looks short, but he is guessed at 5'7 and looks 5'11.  Memories are funny like that, though.  The woman doesn't look comfortable on his lap. Regarding sitting, it appears to be so he is not standing
right behind the preachers hand. If i were a photographer, i would position as such, on an acclaimed's lap. And who else's lap would a new wife be allowed to sit on?  Features all look right on to me.  I think too often we misunderstand how dramatic looks and Voice change in short order when under such indulgence.  Lastly, is that Tape over the laces(missing) of his shoes in the Paramount full body shot? Great Post!

Offline jrn

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 11:33:22 PM »
I'm pretty sure one of those horses in the back is the famous Mr. Ed.
Quitman, Mississippi

Offline TonyGilroy

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2013, 12:56:29 AM »

If he's there as the entertainment rather than the bridegroom you'd expect to see the guitar.

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Man sitting by Preacher while everyone else stands- 1920s-(Patton?)
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2013, 04:14:59 AM »
I don't see Mr. Ed's stripe. One could be Francis the Talking Mule though, going by the ears.

I would add that given all we know about men's feelings towards blues singers and their women, what chance is there a groom would let his bride sit on the lap of one at his wedding? Not to mention what preacher would pose in such a photo. So if this was Patton, it would pretty much have to be his wedding. The seated man is tall though, as others have pointed out. I would be very surprised if this ever proved to be Patton.

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