collapse

* Member Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Like Us on Facebook

I'm a greedy glutton, eat fifty times a day. When I'm around a pigpen, they hide the slop away - Me And My Tapeworm, Sylvester Weaver 1927

Author Topic: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments  (Read 10628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2008, 09:54:15 AM »
I found these two Martha Copeland songs (as well as hundreds of others) at this fascinating page dedicated to the early sound films & other period recordings

http://vitaphone.blogspot.com/

There are two songs from an NBC radio broadcast on the 15th of May, 1928:

-'I Ain't Got Nobody', Martha Copeland & Orch.
-'St. Louis Blues', Martha Copeland & the Hall Johnson Choir.

edited to add:
Googling around I found a WFMU broadcast which plays the above radio broadcast in its entirety and there's another tune between the above titled 'Wylie Avenue Blues' (she had recorded this song in 1927). It can be found here
http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/9526
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 11:01:59 AM by cheapfeet »
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline Cleoma

  • Member
  • Posts: 275
  • Howdy!
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2008, 01:35:27 AM »

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 06:13:32 AM »
Thanks for that Cleoma.

Bessie Smith recorded 'Haunted House Blues' on January 9th, 1924 with Don Redman on clarinet & Fletcher Henderson on piano. A whistle is used to mimic the sound of a ghost & is uncredited. It can't be Redman because it plays over his clarinet but perhaps Henderson had it mounted on a rack? Anyway, B&GR has no credit for it.

edited to add:
(Listening to lotsa Bessie this afternoon . . .)
'Weeping Willow Blues' from Sept. 1924 & 'Sinful Blues' from December of the same year both have uncredited percussion (incl. whistle). 'Weeping' is accompanied by members of Fletcher Henderson's orch. so I would suggest the possible persussionist to be Kaiser Mitchell from Henderson's group at that time.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 10:10:48 AM by cheapfeet »
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 10:56:44 AM »
While we're debating the legitimacy of a possible Robert Johnson photo elsewhere . . . that reminds me of the discovery of the first take of his 'Traveling Riverside Blues' in the early 2000s.

DAL-400-1,-2     Traveling Riverside Blues     ARC unissued
[recorded June 20th, 1937 in Dallas, TX.]
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 10:57:50 AM by cheapfeet »
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 08:54:54 AM »
Oriole 716 has Bessie Brown's 'Ain't Much Good In The Best of Men Now Days' with Sadie Green's 'Senorita Mine' on the reverse. The note in the Brown entry reads
'Rev. Oriole 716 is Senorita Mine, which, although probably from the next session and credited to Sadie Green, is by an unknown, possibly white, popular vocalist.'
But Sadie Green's entry in B&GR states that this is a pseudonym for Bessie Brown on Oriole.
To my ears it does sound like Bessie Brown is the vocalist on 'Senorita Mine'.
See http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessiebrown.html for Bessie's tunes.
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline frankie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2441
    • DoneGone.net
will the real 'Easy Going Woman' please stand up?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 04:17:15 PM »
I posted this on pwb, but thought I'd post it here in case it doesn't generate any replies (not that it will here, either...)

recently I was listening closely to emusic downloads of the following CDs from Document:

BDCD-6013 - Mississippi String Bands & Associates 1928 - 1931
BDCD-6018 - Charlie McCoy 1928 - 1932

and was struck by the following songs.

on Mississippi String Bands:

track 21: Easy Going Woman Blues

recorded Monday 19 January 1931
Charlie McCoy v and mand. probably Walter Vinson, g

on Charlie McCoy:

track 23: Times Ain't What They Used To Be

recorded 3 February 1932.
Personnel: "Papa" Charlie McCoy v; acc. own bj; possibly Tampa Red or
Kansas Joe, g

Aurally, these appear to me to be not only the same songs, but the same performances.  To be fair, it does sound like two different copies of the same record - the copy used for "Easy Going Woman" sounds like it's in slightly worse shape than "Times."

The fact that there is different personnel and recording dates (a year apart!) listed for each song certainly suggests to me that there are two distinct recordings...  at first I thought it was an emusic goof, but a friend with copies of the CDs confirmed the similarity for me.  So

- did Document mistakenly sequence one copy of one of these songs as the other and there's another song on a 78 under one of these names that either hasn't been found or reissued yet?

- is "Times Ain't Like They Used To Be" indeed identical to "Easy Going Woman" on the original 78 and there's a mistake in listing different session/personnel information?

Thoughts?  If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

Offline uncle bud

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 8314
  • Rank amateur
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 06:03:01 PM »
Well, I'll reply just to prove that it can generate replies.  :P

IMO, the tracks on the Charlie McCoy disc and the Mississippi String Bands and Associates disc are the same recording, dubbed from different 78s (as frankie says, the "Easy Going Woman Blues" track is a poorer condition record and transfer). Comparing the mando solos, for starters, seems to prove this.

So I'd add the question: Does anyone have a 78 of "Easy Going Woman Blues" to compare to "Times Ain't What They Used to Be"? It's pretty clear that "Times" is the recording that's on both CDs.

Offline dj

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 2615
  • Howdy!
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 04:47:53 AM »
Yep, same song, possibly the same record just mastered at a different sound level.

Quote
It's pretty clear that "Times" is the recording that's on both CDs.

It sure sounds like the title should be "Times Ain't What They Used To Be", but the discographical info for "Times" doesn't seem to fit: that sounds like a mandolin, not a banjo or a banjo-mandolin that Charlie is playing, and the "possibly Tampa Red" on guitar doesn't fit - if that's Tampa Red on guitar, I'll...  I'll...  Well, I'll forgo having beer or wine with dinner tonight!   

Offline frankie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2441
    • DoneGone.net
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 05:22:26 AM »
It sure sounds like the title should be "Times Ain't What They Used To Be", but the discographical info for "Times" doesn't seem to fit: that sounds like a mandolin, not a banjo or a banjo-mandolin that Charlie is playing, and the "possibly Tampa Red" on guitar doesn't fit - if that's Tampa Red on guitar, I'll...  I'll...  Well, I'll forgo having beer or wine with dinner tonight!   

I'm with you - sure sounds like Walter Vinson on guitar to me - maybe Joe McCoy, but the runs are very typical of other songs Vinson plays in the key of F.  Definitely not a banjo - banjo-mandolin is possible, but there's actual decay on the notes as opposed to the 110% attack you hear in a banjo/mandolin.

Offline uncle bud

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 8314
  • Rank amateur
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2008, 07:51:26 AM »
B&GR doesn't seem to have an abbreviation for banjo mandolin and doesn't distinguish between instruments in the banjo family. Everything is just a banjo (as if there were some generally accepted prejudice against banjos. I know! Hard to imagine!). Papa Charlie Jackson is not listed as playing a six-string banjo or guitar banjo, just banjo. Banjo mandolins or tenor/four-string banjos are listed as simply banjos. And we will not even discuss banjo ukes.

The instrument on "Times" could possibly be a banjo mando to my ear, but dj and frankie are probably right. It could just be poor recording and poor reissuing that gives the mando that slightly banjoesque sound.

The inclusion of Tampa Red as a possible accompanist can surely only be based on the fact that Tampa and Georgia Tom had a session for Vocalion the same day, 3 February 1932, in New York, like Charlie. It sounds nothing like Tampa Red. I think dj has no worries about his beer or wine with dinner.

Wouldn't have minded hanging out in the studio that day. Or the next day (Tampa did "Dead Cats On the Line", "You Can't Get That Stuff No More", "Things 'bout Coming My Way No. 2"; Charlie McCoy did "Too Long").
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 07:57:32 AM by uncle bud »

Offline uncle bud

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 8314
  • Rank amateur
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2008, 08:07:07 AM »
Oriole 716 has Bessie Brown's 'Ain't Much Good In The Best of Men Now Days' with Sadie Green's 'Senorita Mine' on the reverse. The note in the Brown entry reads
'Rev. Oriole 716 is Senorita Mine, which, although probably from the next session and credited to Sadie Green, is by an unknown, possibly white, popular vocalist.'
But Sadie Green's entry in B&GR states that this is a pseudonym for Bessie Brown on Oriole.
To my ears it does sound like Bessie Brown is the vocalist on 'Senorita Mine'.
See http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessiebrown.html for Bessie's tunes.

Just noticed this post. I went to redhotjazz.com and I agree with cheapfeet, the vocalist on Senorita Mine is Bessie Brown. I suspect the reason for the "possibly white" singer comment is the tight-sphinctered and exaggerated delivery, but surely this is simply the musical theatre/revue experience coming through. The voice sounds the same.

Offline uncle bud

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 8314
  • Rank amateur
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2008, 08:12:35 AM »
And I'll just add that while recently reading Spreadin' Rhythm Around; Black Popular Songwriters 1880-1930, the Waller/Williams tune "Senorita Mine" comes up several times and was indeed used in a revue called Tan Town Topics in 1926, the same year as the Bessie Brown recording.

Regarding the pseudonym Sadie Green. Does the Memphis Jug Band tune "Everybody's Talking About Sadie Green" (1930) have anything to do with this name? Or the Five Harmaniacs' "Sadie Green, the Vamp of New Orleans" (1926)? Which you can listen to hear if you like: http://www.archive.org/details/FiveHarmaniacs-SadieGreenTheVampOfNewOrleans1926
Who's Sadie Green?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 08:13:54 AM by uncle bud »

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2008, 06:26:59 PM »
Quote
Who's Sadie Green?

I'd like to know too.

Listening to early Lonnie Johnson selections at Red Hot Jazz
http://www.redhotjazz.com/LJohnson.html.
B&GR states that on the August 13th, 1926 recording of 'There's No Use Of Lovin' Victoria Spivey is possibly present. A man is heard speaking on the track & does a high pitched howl which does sound somewhat like Spivey but is clearly him I think. This is probably Lonnie's brother, James Johnson, who was present at the session, or Lonnie himself.

minor stuff:
October 3, 1927's 'St Louis Cyclone Blues' has an uncredited wind sound effect.

December 14th 1927's 'Why Should I Grieve After You're Gone' has a 2,4,5,6 credit when there is no 6th credit description.

 
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline CF

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2008, 11:26:35 AM »
Listening to Ishmon Bracey lately, working on a version of 'Four Day Blues'. I have the JSP 'Legends of Country Blues' collection which has all of Bracey's recordings. The first track is 'Stranger Blues'. Credits say sung by Rosie Mae Moore with guitar accompaniment by Bracey. Sounds like Bracey to me. Yet B&GR states that all four songs from this session have guitar acc. by Charlie MCcoy. Whaddya all think?
Rosie Mae Moore is a great singer BTW. A kind of hoarse, tuberculosis-sounding voice & very dark & country. She may also have used the name Mary Butler & recorded with the MS Sheiks crew. Check 'er out. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 11:28:31 AM by cheapfeet »
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline dj

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 2615
  • Howdy!
Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2008, 11:42:19 AM »
Could be Bracey, though at the start of the song, Rosie says "Oh, play it Mr. Charlie, a long time and a heap of it".  Possibly Charlie McCoy imitating Ishmon Bracey?  Whoever it is can't resist putting in a few mandolin-like trills in the instrumental verse, so if it's not Charlie imitating Ishmon it's Ishmon imitating Charlie.   ;)   

 


anything