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Author Topic: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments  (Read 10653 times)

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lebordo

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Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« on: December 02, 2004, 11:27:46 AM »
Hi, all.

Do we have any members who would be interested in corrections/clarifications to Blues & Gospel Records 1890-1943, 4th ed.?

I keep a running list that I periodically submit to Howard Rye, one of the compilers ot this standard reference discography.? Some corrections/clarifications are based on my own meager 78 rpm blues collection.? Most are based on label photos/scans I find online, including ebay auction photos/scans.

So far the list is just over 150 corrections/comments/clarifications.? I'll be happy to post them (and update them periodically) if there's interest -- either as an .rtf attachment (or Excel, if more usable) or as inline text in a subsequent post.

On the other hand, if it's not going to benefit anyone, no need to post it at all.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 04:46:53 AM by Johnm »

Offline Richard

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2004, 12:26:09 PM »
You must be very keen ;) but yes, I would certainly be interested to see what you have found. I can't pretend G&D is bedtime reading but it certainly is very handy on occassion .

Maybe  an .rtf format might be the best as it's universal?
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2004, 05:47:19 PM »
I'd do it as inline text in a message unless there's a lot of formatting. And while it might be obscure, I think it's a good reference to have out there. Why not, I say?


lebordo

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2004, 08:38:32 PM »
Thanks to Richard and Uncle Bud for their input.

Replying to another thread, I discovered there is a 12000 character limit to text in post.  The correction file appears to be over 60,000 characters.  So it's either break it up into smaller segments (perhaps pages 1-100, 101-200, etc.) or posting as an attachment. 

An .rtf attachment seems unlikely (haven't actually tried it yet), since the attachment section clearly says "Allowed file types: txt, jpg, gif, pdf, mpg, png, mp3, zip, tef, xls, csv" and rtf isn's on that list of supported file types.  So if I do it as an attachment, the only logical choices I see are tst or xls.  Converting to a txt file will require some reformating where I've centered something or used tabs; and in addition to probably not being usable by many memers, the xls format presents technical limitations since many of the corrections have text too long to fit in an Excel cell -- 240 chars max if memory serves me correctly.

Any thoughts on segmented text postings vs. one text file attachment.

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2004, 08:57:15 PM »
Slack's internet access is currently down. Let's wait for him to chime in. But yes, 60,000 is probably best done by attachment...

Offline Richard

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2004, 01:39:08 AM »
Could you post a sample or something so folks could see what they are getting into (!) and then maybe direct them to a site where they could download the whole thing if they wanted - if of any help you could post it on a spare page on my website which I use just for odds and sods.

How big are the files as they stand?
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline Slack

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2004, 08:46:55 AM »
Hi Guys,

I'd be happy to up the Character limit - but 60K seems like a whole lot for an inline text message - remember lots of folks still use dial up modems and they would have to load that everytime they opened the topic.  So an RTF file attachment seems to be a better way to do it. 

I'll configure the forum it accept RTF files, how's that?

slack

Offline Richard

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2004, 10:58:39 AM »
What a gentleman ;)
(That's enough of that. Ed)

lebordo

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2004, 11:13:19 AM »
Thanks, Slack.

I see that rtf has already been permitted, so I'll generate a separate message with the rtf attachment.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 11:53:58 AM by lebordo »

lebordo

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2004, 11:52:20 AM »
Hi, all.

As promised, I am attaching a rich text (.rtf) file with the comments and corrections to Blues & Gospel Records, 4th edition, by Goodrich, Dixon & Rye.? All items in this document have already been submitted to Howard Rye for consideration in the next edition.

If you aren't into discographical info, I suggest you not bother to download the attachment.? I suspect it would be quite boring.

I like Richard's comment about an example.? But they are all so different that I decided to post several representative examples rather than just one.? In the attachment, items are sorted by page, with items on a page (hopefully) listed in the same order thay were on the page.

EXAMPLES

p. 411 - Papa Harvey Hull
Mx not known (Original Stack O'Lee Blues) Black Patti label credits artists as Long Cleve Reed and Little Harvey Hull Down Home Boys (i.e.no quotes around Cleve, a " after Hull, and no parenthesis around Down Home Boys
(from inspection of online label scan)
(source=http://www.vintage78.com/siteCF/images/labels/ctryblues/label1.jpg)

p. 431 - Mike Jackson
Mx 34738-1 (Just Too Bad) and Mx 35739-2 (I'm Gonna Kill Myself) -- both sides of Vi 20181 are as by Mabel Richardson Mike Jackson
(from inspection of label scan provided with ebay record auction)

p. 462 - Lonnie Johnson
Your note under Mx 401981-A and 401982-B indicates Vo 03094 uses Arabic numerals for Part 1 and Part 2; at least some labels actually use Roman numerals Part I and Part II.? (from inspection of label scan provided with ebay record auction).

Also, as I previously emailed to you, I actually purchased this record, and when it arrived, the matrix numbers actually stamped in the run-off of Vo 03094 (this is the Gold on Black label, if it matters) are as follows:

   IT FEELS SO GOOD - Part I   W401622A (which is the matrix for the same title on p. 461, Okeh 8664
   IT FEELS SO GOOD - Part II? W401623D (which is the matrix for the same title on p. 461, Okeh 8664)

So instead of corresponding to Okeh's It Feels So Good - Part 3 / Part 4 as your note on page 462 suggests, MY copy of Vo 03094 correctly matches up with Okeh's It Feels So Good - Part 1 / Part 2.? Subsequent to this, I purchased a copy of Okeh 8664, and Vo 03094 has exactly the same lyrics as Ok 8664.? Wave form analysis also proves they are identical on both sides.? Visually, they are from the same master, with the same matrix numbers appearing in the same relative location to the run-off grooves.? This seems to leave us with just a few unanswered questions:

  • Did Vocalion ALSO issue 03094 with matrices 401981-A and 401982-B?
  • If Vo 03094 does exist with matrices 401981-A and 401982-B, did this coupling use arabic numbers Part 1 and Part 2, as in your page 462 note, or did it use roman numerals Part I and Part II as on my copy of 03094?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to these two questions.? Perhaps you know the source of your original comment, and can verify that information.? That would be fortunate, wouldn't it?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 04:51:17 AM by Johnm »

Offline Slack

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2004, 12:34:19 PM »
Thanks Paul, perfect. 

Kinda neat to see WeenieCampbell.com as a source for a couple of your corrections.... who-da thunk it!

Cheers,
slack


lebordo

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2004, 07:36:30 PM »
Right, Slack.

Too bad I didn't realize you had a juke when I visited WeenieCampbell the first couple of times.

Guess I'll have to spend some time adding to your label gallery, too, if that's possible (haven't looked yet).

I've got over 5,000 pics/scans of black blues/gospel, including dupes.  Some are copyrighted, so I can't provide those.  Some are poor quality, so it doesn't make much sense to provide those.

If you can give me some idea of what you intended with the label galery, I can try to add appropriately instead of randomly.  For example, are you just interested in one of each label / label type.  Or do you want as many as you can get.  For example, I've got about 10 Bertha "Chippie" Hill labels and about 20 Barbecue Bob labels.  All the Barbecue Bob's are on Columbia black Electronic Process labels.  Would it be appropriate to post all 20, or just one.  The "Chippie" Hill labels are on Perfect, Conqueror, Okeh, Circke, Hot Record Society, and Vocalion.  If you already have a Perfect lable for another artist, would you want more Perfect labels?

Obviously, I'm not going to post even 1000 overnight -- particularly since I have a dial-up line. (SBC just reduced their DSN connection rate to 19.95 per month, competitive with my dial-up from Core.Com.  So when my yearly renewal is up, I probably will change to DSN.  Cable is still over $40, and I just can't afford that on my fixed income.)  But if I have a feel for what you goal is, I can try to slowly make additions.

Offline Slack

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Re: Pre-War Blues and Gospel Discography Info
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2004, 08:49:10 PM »
Quote
If you can give me some idea of what you intended with the label galery, I can try to add appropriately instead of randomly.

Hi Paul, good question.  I suppose I initially went hunting 78 labels for a pretty silly reason - to intersperse the gallery with a "random" display of some cool labels... to make the gallery look purty. :-)  However, I enjoy looking at these old labels for a couple of reasons.  I like them as art, the great variety of desgin and style.  Also, I like to see my blues heros names in lights, to see how their recordings were first issued.  It fires my imagination, takes me back in time.

So! :-)  It would be great to see as many different kinds of labels as possible and then secondarily, blues classics or blues giants or rare labels.

Cool, Thanks!
Slack

Offline CF

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Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 07:20:50 AM »
For those with the 4th edition of B&GR there was a discussion recently about a thread dedicated to ammendations, corrections & queries. See here

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=2135.0

There was an effort made almost 4 years ago by member lebordo to start such a thread. He (?) posted a downloadable file of corrections that were offered to Howard Rye & can be found here

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=60&topic=736.0

lebardos corrections are far more detailed than anything I could come up with but I think any level of ammendation would be a welcome thing. Bunker Hill mentioned that Rye still maintains a B&GR correction article in Blues & Rhythm magazine. That would be a most valuable resource to tap into.
This may be the place to discuss personnel queries as well . . . for instance: does anyone else hear a second guitar on Charley Jordan's 'Keep It Clean No.2'?? There's a BB Fuller tune that sounds to me like 2 guitars when only one is catalogued.
The most obvious corrections would be the recordings that have been discovered & released since the 1997 publishing date.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 07:22:59 AM by cheapfeet »
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline CF

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Re: Blues And Gospel 1890-1943 4th Edition Amendments
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 10:54:43 AM »
I was very excited about the discovery of the two Son House tracks from his Paramount May 1930 session, PM 13096, 'Mississippi County Farm Blues' & 'Clarksdale Moan'. Yazoo's 'The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of' has a reprint of the 'MS County Farm Blues' label which has a matrix number of L 401 (I believe).
I have these songs on CDs Yazoo 2202, JSP7781, BIM 104 (Blues Images vol.4).

uncle bud gave me the recording info for the Tommy Johnson test found a while back:

- I Want Someone To Love Me (L-227-1)
- I Want Someone To Love Me (L-227-2)

rec. c. December 1929 in Grafton, Wis.; Tommy Johnson, voc, g
unissued Paramount test pressing.
*Is there any way of knowing which take we have?

King Solomon Hill's 'My Buddy Blind Papa Lemon' & 'Times Done Got Hard', Pm13125, was discovered.

'Cold Woman Blues' & 'Ninety Nine Blues', Pm12983, by Blind Joe Reynolds turned up.

Most recently Blind Blake's 'Night & Day Blues' & 'Sun To Sun', Pm13123, was discovered & is found on the 2009 Blues Images CD.




Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .