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Mercer Ellington has stated that Juan Tizol conceived the melody to "Caravan" in 1936 as a result of his days studying music in Puerto Rico, where they couldn't afford much sheet music so the teacher would turn the music upside down after they had learned to play it right-side up. This "inversion" technique led to a modal sound throughout Tizol's work - wikipedia entry for "modal jazz"

Author Topic: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.  (Read 39560 times)

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Offline unezrider

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2007, 02:14:48 PM »
hello everyone,
i have to disagree about the sound quality of the document vs. yazoo. to my ears, yazoo by far has the better sound. some of the older titles on yazoo, you could debate, if you want (titles released before '94 or '95), but everything since i think has been remastered w/ a caring hand. the yazoo's may have more noise, but they also aren't as flat or thin as some of the documents can come across as sounding. & the recent remastering work by richard nevins is just terrific. you can actually hear the nuanceson the recordings. just listen to the multiple vol.s of 'times ain't like they used to be', 'the stuff dreams are made of'. the 'best of' stuff w/ blake, mctell, lemon, frank stokes, i think you'll hear what i mean. sure if you want to have everything, yazoo isn't going to fulfill that need for you. but sometimes when you have the option, you owe it to yourself to hear these recordings remastered at their best.
thats my opinion, anyway....
chris
"Be good, & you will be lonesome." -Mark Twain

Offline Rivers

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2007, 07:56:31 PM »
I've had the Charlie Patton Black Swan CD set for several years and I reckon it's pretty good. People hear different things in CD remastered 78s so I certainly wouldn't pretend to speak for anyone but myself. Suffice to say I've felt no compelling need to go out and buy the Revenant or JSP box sets . . yet.

I'd characterize the overall mix as 'hot', not really like a 78, more like a vinyl mixdown of an original 78. That would be my totally uninformed guess as to the origins of the Black Swan, somebody prove me wrong.

Actually I rip everything to the iPod, I have the two earlier Yazoos, just so I can compare the different results. Can't have too much Patton I reckon, and I can hear clearly lyrics in one I can't catch in the other due to the different disposition of various types of noise on the source, and EQ choices during mastering probably. So yeah, I like the Black Swan Patton.

Cooljack

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2007, 09:33:36 PM »
I recently had the last Bo Carter CD which Yazoo Released and the songs didn't seem any different sound quality wise to that of document, but personally I dont think sound quality should be that much of an issue unless you want to introduce a "normie" who probably couldn't handle the background noise. I think I would be really disappointed if all the background noise was removed.

On a similar note, Remastering. Remastering can meen a number of different things, I wouldn't buy any CD which i didn't have the chance to preview atleast one or two songs before hand and this is mainly to check just what kind of remastering has been done. Some of the time Remastering can do no good to a song whatsoever and even make it worse. I've heard a few of these "remastered" songs and the technique they use to "remaster" them is a little sound effect called "Remove Noise" which basically agets rid of the background noise by muffeling it out, the main problem with this is alot of the time it just takes the music with it and creates a distinctive whistling noise a bit like a synthesizer in the background. I had a good example of this which had been done to a blind blake song, I think I might have deleted it though.

Offline Great Bear

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2007, 03:39:23 AM »
Re: Black Swan -  Fidelity-wise I would put them just a notch above Document, and way behind Yazoo. Nothing spectacular. For chronic audiophiles only!

Re: Yazoo vs. Document - On a hi-fi set-up (as opposed to a pc or iPod) the differences between Yazoo and Document are enormous. The overwhelming majority of Document's releases are essentially second generation transfers from collectors cassette tapes, whereas Yazoo digitize directly from the best available 78?s. The quality of the cassettes Document received varied widely, as did the condition of the source 78's, resulting in an unnecessarily  muffled sound on some titles.

Offline unezrider

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2007, 04:14:34 PM »
cooljack,
i agree w/ some of what you are saying. particularilly on your awareness how some 'remastering' can ruin the overall power of an old recording. but when you say sound quality shouldn't be that much of an issue...etc.. but that is my point w/ yazoo. (county records, & old hat do terrific jobs, as well) it's not that they don't have any noise on them, but that you can hear subtle things on them that you can't on other labels. & those little things can only add to the power of those performances. they seem 'fuller' to me, & more immediate, when remastered properly. i still will buy sets on jsp, & i own some documents, as well, but yazoo, in my mind is the standard by which i hold them all to.
i have the blind willie johnson's on yazoo, (had 'em for years) then i heard one of his songs remastered on one of the yazoo religious sets, 'half ain't never..' i think, & it was like hearing the song for the 1st time.
the music isn't going to sound as moving, if it sounds thin, flat or whatnot. & whether or not your new to this music, thats going to hold true.
there's so few company's out there who are doing it right, i just like to support the ones that do. & personally i find i end up enjoying the recording more....
chris
"Be good, & you will be lonesome." -Mark Twain

Offline MTJ3

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2007, 10:27:27 PM »
I don't know if the two Magpie CDs [of Leroy Carr] are still available but the "remastering" was by John R T Davis and favourably commented upon in reviews. Do you have these MTJ3?http://www.wirz.de/music/carrfrm.htm

Thanks, BH.  After I got my hot little hands on vol. 1, I realized that I had, in fact, seen these before.  The Piano Blues series in which they appear was edited and produced by Francis Wilford Smith and "mastered direct from the 78's" (emphasis supplied) in his collection.  To my ear, the sound is quite good, and on some cuts it is exceptional.  I would guess that is attributable to E and VG/VG+ 78s in Smith's collection rather than re-mastering by The Master, who was not credited on the CD "jacket," if he indeed did any remastering on them.  The sides reissued in vols. 1 and 2 are from 1930-1935, and, therefore and unfortunately, do not include improvements on the more "thrashed" reissues of sides from 1928 and 1929. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 07:55:00 AM by MTJ3 »

Offline Stuart

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #126 on: November 30, 2007, 11:57:18 AM »
This just in:

http://www.document-records.com/specials.asp

And a New Rev. Gary Davis Live CD (among other offerings):

http://www.document-records.com/index.asp

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #127 on: November 30, 2007, 09:59:14 PM »
Given that we (or I) have just been talking about it in the Leadbelly thread, it's worth mentioning that the Leadbelly Private Party in Minneapolis CD is available for ?1.99 on these specials. I've got it and really enjoy it, though can understand how it might be considered for completists only. Still, it's got some great material, some wonderful performances, and is an interesting historical document. And ?1.99 is 4 bucks. Pretty good deal. Me, I'm going to pick up some of those old-time discs at ?1.99 a pop.

Offline dj

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2007, 07:13:45 AM »
There was a discussion a few pages back about Document 5181: "St Louis 1927 - 1933".  I just got my copy yesterday, after it had been lost in the combined British and American postal systems for 2 months.  I haven't even gotten all the way through it yet - I'm only on track 10 - but had to post to say "Get this disk."  Henry Johnson's Boys are what lead me to my recommendation.  They back Jelly Roll Anderson and then have 6 tracks of their own.  Admittedly, Anderson is a bit of an acquired taste - he sounds a bit like Al Jolson on a bad day, like a conservatory-trained singer trying to get down but not too dirty.  But the two Hawaiian tracks by Henry Johnson's Boys are just fantastic.  "Blue Hawaii" is a straightforward Hawaiian guitar piece, accompanied by celeste and, presumably, Lonnie Johnson lightly chording along.  "Hawaiian Harmony Blues" is a Hawaiian march, performed by the two guitars and celeste with the addition of a very strange fiddle part.  It takes fiddler Henry Johnson a full verse to figure out what key the rest of the band is in, and once he finds the key he still sounds like he's playing a totally unrelated song, but the results are glorious music, even if they are a bit of a shambles.  The other four tracks by the band are also beautiful small band performances of a type that was recorded all to infrequently.
       

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2008, 01:29:10 PM »
Document's January Newsletter is out, bringing another round of CDs on sale. Not a huge selection of ?1.99'ers, most are in the ?3.99 category. Lots of Leadbelly (geez, it's complicated figuring all those Leadbelly discs out) and Josh White at the latter price. Some recommended discs at ?1.99 like Memphis Blues Vol 2 DOCD-5159 which has Hattie Hart, George Torey, John Henry Barbee, Pearl Dickson and others (I really like Madelyn James for some reason). Jim Jackson Vol 2 at ?1.99 is worth the price IMO,  :P though beware there is quite a bit of repetition in his repertoire. Other ?1.99'ers: Roosevelt Sykes; Too Late Too Late Vol 4; Blue Ladies (Hattie Bolten is Hattie Hart in disguise, and apparently Kansas Katie is a Lil Green imitator, so this one is appealing to me for $4); Jimmie Gordon.

You can browse them all here:

http://www.document-records.com/specials.asp


Cooljack

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2008, 03:06:22 AM »
I got that too Andrew The memphis blues CD is to tempting to ignore, alot of gospel cheap this month too and those lonnie Johnson CD's are begging to be bought.

Im in a really good mood as this morning the document 3 CD set "Never Let the Same Bee Sting you Twice" arrived and I have to say it has replaced "Backwood Blues" as the greatest Document release now for me, I don't think theres one sub par song on it and it is fairly cheap considering the price of most document CD's (unless you buy it on amazon of course where it is pretty expensive), theres an amazing song played on the quills called "Going to Leave you blues" though Im suspistious of this as I think there may have been a mistake made on the CD as the song right next to it is called "Quill Blues" and features no quill atall...hmm, the best thing I've ever bought from document all the same.


Offline Minnesota Dave

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2008, 06:42:46 AM »
I agree. That songster set is mighty fine listening. Classic.  8)

Offline rjtwangs

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2008, 09:20:08 AM »
You can search here for a list of over 700 Document titles available here in the US
http://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?style=music&HT_Search=xlabel&HT_Search_Info=Document+%28USA%29

RJ

I have just ordered the 3 cd set mentioned above, "Never Let the Same Bee Sting you Twice" it looks to good to pass up. Thanks guys!!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 09:32:04 AM by rjtwangs »

Offline uncle bud

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2008, 09:25:36 AM »
Hi RJ,

Document will ship to the US and around the world, just so it's clear. Many of us have ordered from them directly and had fine service. When they have a sale, it's particularly worthwhile. For instance, the Blue Ladies disc I mention above goes for $4 in the sale, and is listed at $15.49 at the CD Universe link you provided.

Offline rjtwangs

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Re: Document CDs--availability, sound quality, etc.
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2008, 09:37:19 AM »
Yep Andrew you are so right, The CD Universe list is the one I've used for reference, I ordered the box set directly from Document just moments ago. Mostly I have been buying the JSP, Proper and Boulevard sets from Bluebeat Music, if there are better places to buy blues cd's please let me know. Thanks Andrew you are always so helpful, maybe we'll meet in Port Townsend this summer, I'll be bringing my Greven L00v!!!

RJ


 


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