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It's a bad wind that never change - Blind Lemon Jefferson

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 108327 times)

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Offline Prof Scratchy

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #180 on: August 06, 2014, 08:57:00 AM »
For the Tampa Blues I?m going to say A position a half step up or capoed at the first fret. The structure and chords go something like:

A                                             D       
Don't you never take a woman, well to be your friend

A                                                    E7
She'll lead you from the jailhouse drop you somewhere's in the pen

A                                D
you'll be there grieving tell you what they want to do

Adim                               (E)
wait for you're in Tampo,

A
Sitting down

With the capo at the third fret it sounds like the treble notes played are a first string bend at the ninth fret down to first string 6th fret and second string 8th fret back to first string at 6th fret.

Offline Gumbo

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #181 on: August 06, 2014, 09:53:25 AM »
I was thinking it is open G (DGDGBD) capo'd at the 3rd. I can't get it to sound right in standard.
the solo at 47s plays well in a D shape at the 7th fret.

Offline Norfolk Slim

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« Reply #182 on: August 06, 2014, 01:14:59 PM »
Im with scratchy.  A position, half a note sharp.  The intervals shout "long a shape" at me, and the V chord has a lower bass note than the I and IV suggesting an E shape V chord.

I'll give the other questions a go if I get the chance later this evening!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 01:22:06 PM by Norfolk Slim »

Offline ScottN

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #183 on: August 06, 2014, 03:16:19 PM »
No guitar at hand but I'll vote for A position.

In the 16 bar form the V chord in measures 7,8, and 14 sound like they drop in pitch to E position.

The bass activity in bar 15 and 16 over the I chord sound similar to what Blind Boy Fuller plays over the A chord at the beginning of the verses to Untrue Blues.

The biggest reinforcement of A to me was in the verse starting at 1:55, in bar 5 and 6 over the I chord (at about 2:00) there is the telltale sliding barre move from fret 1 sliding into fret 2.

Bars 1 and 2 in most of the verses sound consistent with the long A shape over the I chord.

I'm less sure what is happening in bars 3 and 4 although it sounds like maybe starting in D then leaving the ring finger in place on string 2 fret 3 and reaching back with the index finger to get the first fret first string...pure speculation on that as I don't have a guitar to test it on right now.

Thanks,
           Scott
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 03:19:07 PM by ScottN »

Offline Pan

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #184 on: August 06, 2014, 04:49:08 PM »
Hi all

Seems like the heavy lifting is already done, so I'll agree with Banjochris, Professor Scratchy, Norfolk Slim and ScottN on A-position standard tuning, pitched at around B flat.

I think ScottN makes an excellent point with the similarity to Blind Boy Fuller and his "Untrue Blues".

Professor Scratchy mentions an A diminished chord, which falls to bar 13, if I'm not mistaken. At first I too thought of a diminished chord, but listening again, I'm going to suggest a partial D9 chord with the third (F#) on bass: X-X-4-5-5-5. Note that this has just one note different from the diminished chord that the Professor suggested.

What happens next on the form is a little difficult to describe in terms of chords, since on bar 14 there are only the single string notes open E on the 1st string, and then D on the 3rd fret of the 2nd string, followed by a slightly bent C note on the 3rd fret of the 5th string. Some might hear the E and D note belonging to the E7 chord played earlier on the form, but since no low E, or the chord's major 3rd G# are present, it leaves room for interpretation, especially since the following C note doesn't belong to the E7 chord either. I'll just interpret the last three bars of the form as riffing a minor pentatonic scale over the I chord, but someone else might hear a V7 chord in there as well, and I wouldn't call him or her being wrong.

So for the song form, I hear 16 bars, divided into two 8 bar sections, starting similarly, but with  two different endings, something like this:

|| I | I7 | IV7 | IV7 |

| I | I7 | V7 | V7 ||

|| I | I7 | IV7 | IV7 |

| IV9/3 | I | I | I ||

I think the notes starting the solo are a bend starting at the7th fret on the 1st string, bent up a half step, and then released, the the 5th fret of the 1st string, and the 7th fret of the 2nd string.

Hope I'm more in the ballpark this time!

Cheers

Pan





« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 06:03:38 AM by Pan »

Offline Johnm

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« Reply #185 on: August 07, 2014, 09:51:47 AM »
Hi all,
Here is what I believe is happening in Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield's recording of "Tampa Blues".  The guitarist is playing out of A position in standard tuning, as many of you identified it.  The two sounds that most clearly indicate that identification for me are the sound of the IV chord, with the thumb wrap at the second fret of the sixth string and the D7 fingered on the top three strings at 2-1-2, and the place in the course of the song where the guitarist does a series of syncopated slides with his index partial barre, from the first fret to the second fret on the fourth, third and second strings.
The form is pretty much exactly as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it, a really neat 16-bar blues variant.  I would have it as:

   |    A    |    A(7)    |    D7    |    D7    |

   |    A    |     A       |    E7    |    E7     |

   |    A    |    A(7)    |    D7   |    D7     |

   | Adim7/D9over F#/D7overF#|  E7   |    A    |    A    |

The reason the analysis is hedged in the thirteenth bar is that despite repeated listenings, I have not been able to hear with any certainty what note he plays on the second string there.  I can hear the fourth, third and first strings perfectly clearly, but I sure can't hear the second string.  I think the guitarist is brushing the fourth and third strings with his thumb and picking the first string with his index finger and giving the second string a pass.  In any event, Prof Scratchy's A dim7 would be fretted 4-5-4-5 and is a sound familiar from many Blind Boy Fuller and Rev. Davis songs in A, Pan's D9/F#, 4-5-5-5 is perhaps more rarely encountered, but is a more highly colored D7 chord essentially, and the D7/F# is what I always think of as the Funny Papa Smith chord, 4-5-3-5, a sort of more monochromatic version of Pan's chord.  You can see that all of these choices share the same notes on the fourth, third and first strings, and they are all usable in the context.  In terms of your own playing of the song, I'd say try them all and pick the one you like the sound of best.
I have the 14th bar as an E7, despite there not being an E note in the bass or a G#, the third of the E7 chord as Pan noted, because on most passes through the form the guitarist hits a B note, the fifth of the E7 chord, at the second fret of the fifth string on the downbeat of that measure. He goes quickly from there to an open fifth string, bouncing up to a syncopated third fret of the fifth string.  You can hear this move especially well in the solo at 1:51--1:52.  I think I'd also go for the E7 in the 14th bar because in the verse that follows that solo the guitarist omits the chord he normally plays in the thirteenth bar and simply plays two bars of E7.  I believe he also does this on his last pass through the form.  Plus he doesn't really resolve to a I chord with its root in the bass until the fifteenth bar.
The three notes he plays up the neck in the first solo when he drops the bass out are exactly as Pan had them mapped out, 7th fret of the first string, bent and released, 5th fret of the first string and seventh fret of the second string.  I think Prof Scratchy may have had the same notes, but using the nut as the frame of reference rather than the capo.
I sure do like Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield.  I was able to pick up the Document CD at Port Townsend that contains their four cuts, and they also did a terrific and very original cover of Blind Lemon's "One Dime Blues".  I'll see if I can find it on youtube, and if it is there, I'll post it in the "Great Covers" thread.
I feel like people really heard "Tampa Blues" well, and obviously Prof Scratchy and Pan were right on the case.  I hope more folks will find the time to post answers to the more specific questions on how a song was played.  What's the worst that could happen--you listen to a great performance a bunch of times!  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:29:52 PM by Johnm »

Offline Johnm

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #186 on: August 08, 2014, 09:40:59 AM »
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The piece is "Sometimes I Wonder", a field recording credited to Rob LeRoy.  The piece is obviously a duet, and the tonal quality of the higher guitar, especially, is really odd, as though it were under water.  The duo has a really cool sound, though, and a lot of what the higher guitarist plays is inventive and new to me.  Something about the singer's voice and delivery reminds me of Geoff Muldaur.  NOTE:  Lastfirstface later in this thread identified the two musicians who perform this duet as Leroy Campbell and Robert (Yancey) Sanders.



SOLO X 2

Look who's runnin' around, baby, you don't love me
Baby's let my money down
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometime I begin to worry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

Says, look-a-here, mama, see what you done done
Done caused me to love you, now your man done come
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometimes I begin to cry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

Baby, you goin' 'round here, with your mouth poked out
Baby, you don't know what love is all about
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometime I begin to worry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

SOLO X 2


The questions are:
   * What positions are the two guitarists playing out of?  Hint: They're both playing out of the same position.
   * At :08, you can hear the higher guitarist slide a position up the neck on the top three strings.  Where does the slide end up on those three strings?
   * Where does the higher guitarist fret the fill that is played at :19-:20 over the IV chord?
   * Where does the higher guitarist fret the fill that is played at :27-:30, where the form goes to the V chord?

Answer as many of the questions as you wish, using only your ears and instruments to figure out the answers, please.  Please wait until tomorrow, Saturday, August 9 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 06:32:01 AM by Johnm »

Offline Johnm

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« Reply #187 on: August 08, 2014, 03:19:06 PM »
Hi all,
An additional hint:  Since both players are playing out of the same position, if the higher guitarist seems really difficult to suss out in terms of position/tuning, try figuring out the playing position of the second guitarist, which might be easier to hear and figure out.
All best,
Johnm

Offline One-Eyed Ross

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« Reply #188 on: August 09, 2014, 08:32:24 AM »
Oh, this is tricky...I think I have it partly figured out, but still working it out.  Figuring out what key it is in was easy, and I think I have position, but I'll wait a few days to make sure (I have to go take care of the chickens and all right now)....

Great tune, by the way.  I love the field recordings...

OK, back from chores, so here's my stab at this (Please remember, guys, I'm new at this type of thing, so give me a break)...

a.  E, Vestapol, ( I tuned to D and capo at 2 to get E).

b.  The slide (to my uneducated ear) ends at 12th fret

c and d I will leave to better ears than mine.  I have difficulty getting the two guitars apart, c sounds like at the 5th fret, strings 2-4, but....that could be the lower guitar, so I dunno...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 11:20:40 AM by One-Eyed Ross »
SSG, USA, Ret

She looked like a horse eating an apple through a wire fence.

Offline Prof Scratchy

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« Reply #189 on: August 09, 2014, 02:51:37 PM »
OK - for this one I?m going to say E position in standard tuning. The second guitarist slides up to a long A shape E chord at the ninth fret, with his pinky covering the first and second strings at the twelfth.

For the fill at .19/.20 the second guitarist plays a bent A7th G note at the third fret of the first string, then first string open, then second string second fret, then first string open, then the bent G note on the first string twice, then the open first string again, ending up on the second fret of the second string.

For the fill at  .27 to .30 it sounds to me like the second guitarist is just playing third string second fret, second string open, first string second fret and slightly bending this whole abbreviated V chord.

Offline Johnm

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« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2014, 04:51:45 PM »
Hi all,
Any other takers for Rob LeRoy's "Sometimes I Wonder"?  I'll have to post the answers tonight since I won't be available to do it for a bit.  Come one, come all and get your licks in.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Johnm

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« Reply #191 on: August 09, 2014, 10:27:46 PM »
Hi all
Well, it looks like Ross and Scratchy are the only takers for Rob LeRoy's "Sometimes I Wonder".  Here are the answers to the questions about the song:
   * Both guitars were played out of E position in standard tuning
   * When the higher guitarist does the slide up on the first three strings at :08, he ends up at
13-12-12 on the first three strings (from third string to first), like the top of an F chord moved up eleven frets.  He moves that shape down a fret and back up, intact, a couple of times and then reaches up to get the fifteenth fret of the first string.  The sound of those three strings fretted at 13-12-12 in E position standard tuning is exactly the same as what Ross proposed, a barre at the twelfth fret in Vestapol.  The long A shape that Prof. Scratchy proposed, with a barre across the top four strings at the ninth fret and the 12th fret of the first string is what the higher guitarist starts the song in, going from there to an A7 shape on the top four strings, 9-9-9-10, before going into the position that he slides up.
   * The phrase that the higher guitarist plays over the IV chord sits in the measure is is played like so, starting the phrase on the + of beat 1:

   1          +          2                   +          3          +          4          +
             8th        5th     6th      5th      bent                  5th
             fret,      fret,     fret,     fret,     8th                    fret,
             2nd      1st       1st      1st       fret,                   2nd
            string    and      string,  and      2nd                   and
                        2nd       5th      2nd     string                3rd
                        strings,  fret,    strings,                         strings
                        6th        2nd    6th
                        fret,      string,  fret,
                        3rd       6th      3rd
                       string    fret,      string
                                   3rd
                                   string
Once again, the higher guitarist is working out of an F shape on the first three strings, with his basic shape there being 6-5-5, going from the third string to the first.  He dabs his little finger down to get the 8th fret of the second string, only when he plays that note; otherwise he lifts it instantly.  Because of the way he ends the phrase, he probably barred the first three strings at the fifth fret with his index finger, used his second finger to fret the sixth fret of the third string, and used his third, or ring finger to fret the sixth fret of the first string where that comes in, in between beat 2 and the + of beat 2.  That sixth fret of the first string is really a rasty note in an E blues, Bb, a bV note relative to E and a b9 note relative to the A chord it sounds against.  It sure stood out when I first heard it.
   * The phrase the higher guitarist plays from :27-:30 against the V chord works like this.  As with the phrase against the IV chord, he starts it on the + of beat 1, which give it a strong counter-punching sort of feel.

   1          +          2            +          3          +          4          +
             10th     7th          10th      7th      10th      7th
             fret,      fret,         fret,      fret,      fret,       fret,
            2nd        first         2nd       first      2nd       first
            string,    three       string,   three    string,   three
            7th        strings     7th       strings  8th        strings
            fret,                      fret,                  fret,
            3rd                       3rd                    3rd
           string                    string                 string

Once again, the higher guitarist is working out of an F shape on the first three strings, but this time, an F minor shape.  He used his index to barre the first three strings at the seventh fret, dabs his little finger down only to sound the 10th fret of the second string where it comes in on the + of beats, and really gives the phrase an inside out sound by using his second finger to fret the 8th fret of the third string on the + of beat three.  So it is that he winds up with the following variations of his V chord, mapped out against the pulse:

     1          +          2          +          3          +          4          +
               Bm7      Bm       Bm7     Bm       B7        Bm

Have you ever heard anybody else play a lick that sounds like this in the Country Blues?  Me neither!  When I first heard this tune about a month or five weeks ago, I had to listen to it four or five times before I could get to the place where I could start to take it in.  I would love to know more about the two musicians who were recorded doing this piece, because they have about as close to an altogether different sound as it is possible to get in this music.  And the way that the higher guitarist utilized that partial of the F shape on the first three strings for his I, IV and V chord, up and down the neck, is not something I've ever encountered before.
Good on you, One-Eyed Ross and Prof Scratchy for getting in on this one, because it is really one for the books.  I considered not posting it, just because it is so singular, but I thought folks should hear it.  Thanks guys, for your participation, and I'll post another puzzler when I get back.
All best,
Johnm 

Offline Prof Scratchy

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« Reply #192 on: August 10, 2014, 02:37:50 AM »
Phew! That is indeed a strange one! Like Ross, I first of all thought I was hearing a bottleneck on this one. Like most of these, the solution winds up being very simple and very complicated at the same time.

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Offline Gumbo

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« Reply #193 on: August 10, 2014, 04:35:24 AM »
I had the positions  but also went for the long A at the 9th. Now I'm trying to get my head around the rest of it. Thanks Johnm. Even if I don't get to comment on time it's great to get my brain working after the fact.

Offline orvillej

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« Reply #194 on: August 10, 2014, 10:12:39 AM »
This is a really interesting piece, not only for the music, but also the very reverberant sound quality. Sounds like they recorded those guitars in a cathedral!