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Now I am going to make a statement here. I don't know whether it fits into the category of other people's statements or not. But whether it fits into their category or whether it doesn't, it obviously fits into some category. So in that respect, it is no different from their statements. However, let me try making my statement... - Chuang Tzu: Basic Writings, Translated by Burton Watson (New York: Columbia University Press, 1964)

Author Topic: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?  (Read 3398 times)

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Offline pete12string

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Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« on: May 07, 2009, 01:55:06 PM »
Howdy fellow Weenies!   :D

I am currently getting into the order details for my Fraulini Angelina 12!!!  I'm going pretty basic, but I am still undecided on a pin bridge versus tailpiece.  At first, I really liked the way the tailpiece looked, but now I really can't decide.  I like the way both of 'em look.  And also, if a pin bridge, a 12 or 6 pin? 
So, what do you guys think?
I've heard that string length can be a problem with the tailpiece - hard to find strings long enough to fit. 
How about the top pulling up at the bridge with a pin bridge?  Anybody think that is a concern? 
Or intonation problems with one or the other?   
Or anything else that should enter into the decision?

Any opinions are greatly appreciated!  I've been going back and forth over the pin bridge vs tailpiece since I put my name on the order list with Todd!

Thanks for your help!

Offline blueshome

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 03:16:37 PM »
Nice choice to have to make!

I went for the tailpiece. I like the sound, slightly less bright, and I think playability is better as there is a little less tension as there is more string to stretch, as a bonus the tailpiece looks great. I've had no trouble with getting strings despite the long scale, although I now get them through Todd who has La Bella make custom sets.

Having said the above, others prefer the pin bridge sound and I don't dislike it (maybe one couldn't even tell in a blind test). I don't believe that either choice would be something you would seriously regret making - pin or tailpiece they are still a great sounding/playing guitar - flip a coin if you are that undecided.

BTW, probably more important, what woods have you chosen?

Offline Rivers

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 04:03:21 PM »
My Fraulini has a tailpiece, and I have nothing to compare it to so can't comment on the sound. What I would say is I really like to rake the thumbpick over the strings behind the bridge in my endings, gets a laugh every time.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 04:30:23 PM »
Yeah, I do that with my Nationals, Riv, ala Fuller, et al., but my Sov 12 string is a 6 pin bridge, of which I am a fan.

I think Todd is perfectly capable of building a pin bridge that is hassle free, but a 6 pin, in that the top and bridge plate have less perforation, may be a little more stable?. I think it looks cooler.-G-

There really is a difference in the way the two styles actually move the top. As someone mentioned above, the string tension is taken mostly by the body and the top is laterally stressed by the strings with a tailpiece, and it is changes in this sideways string pressure which drives the somewhat less reinforced top. In a pin bridge, the string tension pulls a slight torque into the bridge and the entire string tension is absorbed by the top, reinforced with a bridge plate. In a bridge plate all of the energy not absorbed by the head is transmitted to the top. But too much tension can have a damping effect.

But it is a complicated question, and I would leave it to someone like Neil Harpe (among others), who has heard perhaps dozens (hundreds?) of each style, to actually describe the sonic difference. I couldn't.

Wax
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:35:16 PM by waxwing »
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Offline harpe

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 05:27:42 AM »
I have neither played nor even seen a Fraulini 12-string in person. So I can't speak to Fraulini's specifically. But I have played lots of Stella 12-strings - both "BBQ Bob" and "Leadbelly" size. I have played those having tailpiece with fixed (glued) bridge, tailpiece with a moveable bridge, 6-pin fixed bridge and 12-pin fixed bridge. I have not noticed a big difference in overall tone and volume between tailpiece and fixed bridge examples.

I have noticed one thing, those with pin bridge seem to be a little more responsive to a lighter attack. I play with no picks, so this is important to me. I also am not a fan of the heavy strings some people believe are necessary on a low-tuned 12-string. I use .011 high E strings tuned to C# on a long scale Stella 12-string, which works great for my playing style!

6 or 12 pins make little difference. The fixed bridge models tend to have a bit more sustain in most instances. But having said that, every guitar is different. I have played some incredible tailpiece models!

Certainly, there is nothing structurally wrong with either method of construction. Most of the old Oscar Schmidt 12-strings of either style have survived well over the course of 80+ years!

Neil Harpe
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 05:35:44 AM by harpe »

Offline pete12string

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 06:35:13 AM »
Hey guys!  Thanks for your input!  This is all great info for helping me make my decision - and it is a very nice decision to have to make!  As for the specs on the guitar, I am going pretty standard.  Spruce top, Mahogany back/sides, the standard tuners (StewMac "Golden Age"), varnish finish.  About the only thing left is the pin bridge vs tailpiece thing.  Like you guys said, I figure I can't go wrong either way.  I will keep you posted...

I really appreciate the opinions - Thanks again! 

Offline sustaireblues

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 02:18:16 PM »
Hey Pete,

Todd would be probably the best person to describe the sound differences between his pinned and tailpiece 12's, see how he describes the difference and let us know. If you choose the pin bridge I would go with the 6 pin. Keeps the bridge a little smaller and lighter, which translates to it taking less string energy to get the top moving. Also to me it just de-clutters the top a bit.

I've built a long-scale pinned 12 and it turned out good, but I'm ready to build a tailpiece model for myself next so I have a better idea of the difference.

And hey, you're gonna be happy either way you go!

Joe

Offline onewent

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 03:46:18 PM »
Get the tail piece model for the simple reason you can do the little 'twings' on the strings behind the bridge ala McTell and others noted by waxwing ..very satisfying!  Tom

Offline pete12string

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2009, 07:53:55 AM »
I have been corresponding with Todd - he says he thinks he prefers pin bridge for the Angelina model and tailpiece for the Francesca.  As far as sound, Todd didn't indicate much of a difference, but I tend to agree with Neil ("the pin bridge seem to be a little more responsive to a lighter attack").  However, Blueshome makes some good points regarding the tailpiece - "I like the sound, slightly less bright, and I think playability is better as there is a little less tension as there is more string to stretch, as a bonus the tailpiece looks great."  Wax gives a great synopsis of how string tension reacts with each option and how that could influence the sound and adds ann excellent additional question - if a pin bridge, 6 or 12? 

I do like the idea of being able to do the little "twings" on the strings behind the bridge!!!  That always adds a smile to any tune! 

Lots to consider...  And again, "Thanks" to everyone!  Your comments and opinions really offer a wealth of info to help me decide.

Pete

Offline snakehips

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 08:27:47 AM »
Hi there !

If I may be so bold as to bring back up this thread, now there must be plenty more people out there with Fraulini 12-string guitars, what do you prefer (or would you do the opposite, if ordering again), a fixed bridge, or taipiece ???

Mahogany, birch or white oak for the back & sides ?

Offline snakehips

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 02:29:03 PM »
Bump !

Iím about 11months now into my place in the waiting list for a Fraulini guitar.
I have settled in my mind on the Angelina 12-string model, with a fixed pin bridge - and think I will have it as a 6-pin bridge.

Iím really stuck on what woods to go for the body.
I dolike the darker woods for back and sides, as a contrast to the front - but that  could be a dark stained or sunburst effect for the back & sides - so I donít that is dictating which woods to go for yet.

Spruce top probably for the top BUT Iím open to suggestions.

For the back & sides ???
White Oak ?
Walnut ?
Rosewood ?
Mahogany?
Koa ???

Anyone owned / played them to have an educated opinion?
I need to make decisions soon !!

Most grateful for your help ?
Many thanks in advance !

Offline Rivers

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2018, 05:24:23 PM »
I would ask Todd, he's played them all.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2018, 09:05:42 PM »
My primary guitar from college, and then when I came back to it and started playing the old blues 20 some years later, was a D-18S, which is a 12 fret mahogany dread with a 1ĺ" nut. I played this exclusively until I started creating a small collection of prewar guitars. I think mahogany is well suited to blues in general as it accentuates the primary tone and doesn't resonate very far into the overtone range, for which rosewood, for one, is noted.  One dealer, upon hearing the D-18S said it would record well as "it doesn't load up when you play it hard."

No surprise, then, that I was very happy to become the current guardian of a 1920 Sovereign 12. I think there is a reason that Oscar Schmidt used mahogany for its premium brand, and the lack of overtones is very important in the 12 to minimize the 'jangly factor'. Playing this guitar has never stopped being a thrill. That said, I have heard many great birch 12s, some of which were Todd's modern versions.

Of the 4 wood guitars I play, three, the D-18S, the Sov 12 and a Gibson B-25 are all mahogany, and the other is the little birch Stella, so take this advice with knowledge of this bias.

Good choice on the 6 pin bridge.

Wax
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 09:13:20 PM by waxwing »
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Offline blueshome

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 08:38:04 AM »
The Angelins I play has white oak back and sides and sounds and looks great. The Professor has heard the guitar, ask him.
Also some years ago we did a duet with Liam who has an Angelina pin bridge, I couldnít discern any difference in the sound.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Fraulini Angelina 12 string - pin bridge or tailpiece?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 11:06:36 AM »
For what it's worth, I'll vouch for the sound of Phil's (blues home's) 12-string.  I heard it pretty much right after he took delivery on it, and it was much the best-sounding new 12-string guitar I have ever heard at that point.
All best,
Johnm