Topic: Robert Johnsons's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Richard]

Glad it was tri-tones not tri-cones 

[David Kaatz]

Open E minor is B-E-B-E-G#-D

Did no one notice that this is not E minor but E?  Is the error of G# unez's or Gibson's?  Agreed the article is BS.

[unezrider]

good catch on that dave! i never even bothered looking at the notes. i copied & pasted the paragraph, so i'll give the honors to the man who (i assume) coined 'devil's tuning' on that one. & while i'm at it, i'm sure E-B-E-G-B-E  would work, too

[Michael Cardenas]

"Two of my favorite Johnson tunings are open E minor, providing the eerie sounds accompanying his wailing vocal on ?Hellhound on My Trail,? and open A.  Open E minor and open A are both ?Spanish? forms
first, when did johnson record anything in E minor tuning? i thought that song was in open D. (or open E) & secondly, who the hell refers to cross note tuning as "the devil's tuning"? & lastly, "Open A is a tad closer to open G?" why yes, yes it is.
who writes this stuff?

As you point out Hellhound can "translate" in E minor, most folks agree to this logic, he might have used capo in E♭, but the string tension sounds closer to a proper E. The person who markets a book using the perjorative tuning description is Gene Roebuck. People like Stefan Grossman tend to refer to the open minors as Cross-note tunings, but scordatura (literally Italian for "mistuning") goes back to c. 1674. Regarding that article stating Open G being termed Spanish, you and I both know it's assumed the tuning arrived in the U.S. via the Portuguese. Hard to establish though, since the tuning in slack variant would be second-hand from Hawaiians shown the tuning by Portuguese merchants, so Spanowaiianese then? It's also mindful to consider the open G or alleged Spanish tuning has a history in Eastern Europe stretching back to the 14th century progressing from temperments within instruments like the Kobza. Do people really call open E or A Spanish?

[dj]

Regarding that article stating Open G being termed Spanish, you and I both know it's assumed the tuning arrived in the U.S. via the Portuguese. Hard to establish though, since the tuning in slack variant would be second-hand from Hawaiians shown the tuning by Portuguese merchants, so Spanowaiianese then? It's also mindful to consider the open G or alleged Spanish tuning has a history in Eastern Europe stretching back to the 14th century progressing from temperments within instruments like the Kobza. Do people really call open E or A Spanish?

Michael,

The term Spanish for open G or any of its variants at higher or lower pitch derives from the very popular 19th century parlor piece "Spanish Fandango", and not from any country of origin.  It was the common term for open G tunings used by African Americans in the first half of the 20th century.

Any variant of open G using the same intervals (F, Gb, A, whatever) is referred to as Spanish because Spanish describes a set of intervals on the guitar and not a pitch.  And anyway, guitar players, white of black, who played primarily solo or with other strings back then, weren't tuning to pianos or tuning forks.

The same reasoning holds for using the term Vestapol (from The Siege of Sebastapol) for open D and its variants at higher or lower pitch.

   

[Michael Cardenas]

not from any country of origin.  It was the common term for open G tunings used by African Americans in the first half of the 20th century.

Spanish describes a set of intervals on the guitar and not a pitch.

The same reasoning holds for using the term Vestapol (from The Siege of Sebastapol) for open D and its variants at higher or lower pitch.

Do you mean that Blacks predominantly used the term pre-war to describe the tuning or do you mean that society used the term "Spanish" to describe the tuning they heard Blacks playing in? Both maybe? The tune Spanish Fandango shows arrangements for banjo, by John Magez 1877, yet soon after arranged for guitar, by W. L. Hayden 1878 and again arranged for the banjo by S. S. Stewart in 1884. Granted it's a good tune, but how popular it was with Blacks late 18th century is debatable. My thought is the term breaks from song association at one point otherwise we're assuming a parlor song has more traction than the Beatles.

Guitarists picked up on that tune adapted to Open G let's say 1885-90 and chances are prior the origin is banjo, regionally speaking. So that takes us back to Open G via Hawaii in which case there is Spano influence, guitar-wise. If there are Spanish intervals, I've been missing out unless you're talking about the Flamenco Ronde?a approached from DADF#BE, resembling Elizabethan Lute. You bring up a good point about the tuning process and the references soloists or ensembles might have used to achieve pitch. These are arcane tuning descriptions so it's interesting to see how close people still stick to the colloquialism. Out of curiosity if you are in Open A do you personally call it Spanish or Open A? And can we pinpoint the earliest Blues in Vestapol? Because I really enjoy the rumor that it came up through the south from French players or vets who might have picked it up in France. If the tonality via the song The Siege of Sevastopol attempts to indicate a regional folkloric mimicry the tuning of an Open D is questionable regarding the Crimean Peninsula as I would think Open G is the popular tuning of the era in Ukraine. 

[bnemerov]

Michael,
Your history is a bit confused, I'm afraid.
"Spanish Fandango" goes back to the mid-1830s as a guitar tune....found in individual sheets and in instruction books of the 19th C.
Henry Worrell is regarded as the composer (c.1835) and the tune was flagged as a "special tuning" piece for guitar.
I played it from the original sheet music (which is quite common--telling us of its popularity) for a Civil War Music 3-CD set. It's quite easy to play (as written) and this probably accounts for its popularity among the parlor-music set c. 1840-1900.

My guess is the African-Americans picked it up from white folks and there is no link to banjo playing (though it was played on the instrument by whites & blacks).
Libba Cotten, MJ Hurt, Sam McGee and many others played it in their styles--often changing the 6/8 time signature to 2/4--through the years.

"Seige of Sevastopol" has a similar trajectory, beginning later in the 19th C. Again, a scordatura programmatic piece....meant to sound like a "battle" and nothing to do with Crimean music characteristics.

So, the black and white folk musicians were quite correct in naming the tunings---whatever the relative pitch, Spanish has a 5th as the highest string and Vastopol  a tonic---after these seminal tunes from the parlor guitar tradition.
Yours for more clarity,
bruce nemerov

[dj]

otherwise we're assuming a parlor song has more traction than the Beatles.

Add Mance Lipscomb and Etta Baker to Bruce's list of people who recorded versions of Spanish Fandango in the 1960s or later.  So yes, this particular parlor song had more traction than the Beatles.

Do you mean that Blacks predominantly used the term pre-war to describe the tuning...

From interviews post-WWII with rediscovered artists who recorded before the war, we know that this is the case.

Out of curiosity if you are in Open A do you personally call it Spanish...

That's the convention here at Weenie Campbell, and I think you'll find most of us around here following that.  It makes sense, when you think about it.  A tuning on a chordal instrument is, when you come right down to it, a set of intervals rather than a set of pitches.

[waxwing]

Michael C. if you were tuned to "open A" and capoed at the first fret, and a young guitarist, noticing your chording, came up and asked if you were playing in "open G' would you say "No! I'm playing in open A#," and let him walk away confused? By terming it "Spanish", as I think it was described by both Son House and Muddy Waters in pre war LoC interview recordings (and I believe both said "Spanish A") it makes it clear to any guitarist that it is the same tuning, with the same chording, no matter where it is pitched. In actuality the intervals 5-root-5-root-3-5 make it identical to the intervals of a normal A chord, 002220, so "Open G" is even more a misnomer. So I would tell the lad, "Well in a way, yes. We call it Spanish tuning, 'cause it doesn't matter what the pitch is. I'm tuned Spanish at A and capoed to A# but the chords are just the same as if I was tuned to Spanish at G, which is what you meant." But that's just me.

The same holds for Vastapol and Crossnote, both terms used by pre war players. Pitch is meaningless in terms of the intervals and naming the tuning after a pitch is confusing, yet, unfortunately, widespread.

Wax

[Michael Cardenas]

if you were playing in "open G' would you say "No! I'm playing in open A#," and let him walk away confused?

I'm up 3 degrees from the G MAJ in Open B♭ the tuning has notes F B♭ and D

[Michael Cardenas]

Your history is a bit confused,
"Spanish Fandango" goes back to the mid-1830s as a guitar tune....
Henry Worrell is regarded as the composer (c.1835) and the tune was flagged as a "special tuning" piece for guitar.
It's quite easy to play (as written) and this probably accounts for its popularity among the parlor-music set c. 1840-1900.

My guess is the African-Americans picked it up from white folks and there is no link to banjo playing (though it was played on the instrument by whites & blacks).

"Seige of Sevastopol" has a similar trajectory, beginning later in the 19th C. Again, a scordatura programmatic piece....meant to sound like a "battle" and nothing to do with Crimean music characteristics.

Henry Worrall was born in Liverpool, England, on April 14, 1825.

During his residence in Ohio, Worrall published his most celebrated compositions and arrangements for solo guitar. His ?Violet Waltz? appeared as early as 1853 through publisher W.C. Peters & Sons of Cincinnati. Worrall?s Guitar School, or The Eclectic Guitar Instructor, appeared in 1856 through the same publisher, with additional printings in 1862 by A.C. & J.L. Peters of Cincinnati and 1884 by the Oliver Ditson Company of Boston.

Worrall?s most celebrated piece for solo guitar, ?Sebastopol,? appeared as early as 1856 to commemorate the siege of Sebastopol [now Sevastopol], Russia, in 1855 by the British and French during the Crimean War (1853-1856). He intended the piece, a military march, to imitate a military bugle and band, and sold it to W.C. Peters & Sons for a small sum. ?Sebastopol? became one of the most popular pieces for solo guitar in nineteenth century America, was scored for many instruments, including piano, banjo, and brass band, and reportedly made a fortune for the publisher. Worrall gained additional fame for an arrangement of the popular ?Spanish Fandango? which appeared as early as 1866.

My original thought was the Spanish introduce the guitar to the U.S., Hawaiians pick up on an Open G variant, so these Portuguese players obviously have the Open G with them and if they are coming in from the Gulf as well those European guitarists probably have the tuning as well. We can associate Open G with a parlor song all we want, but it would be xenophobic to deny Spanish players were spreading the tuning prior to the parlor song.

The link to banjo is that players were arranging it for banjo in the 1880's, this is a sign that more than a few banjo players picked up on it, so at one point there just might have been more banjo players performing it than guitarists. With the same motivation orchestras have in arranging Beatles tunes.

Is it so insane to think Blacks picked up the Open G not from a parlor song, but from real-life Spanish people? Your conjecture is that Spanish tuning is eternally linked to a parlor song and you are right lots of people via vernacular have placed it in such light, but Open G as introduced by the Spanish existed prior to Henry Worrall. And all ethnic fascination aside, brass instruments aren't a hallmark of 19th century Russo folk music.

[Stuart]

http://www.kshs.org/research/collections/documents/personalpapers/findingaids/worrall_henry.htm

[unezrider]

wow.
this thread has come a long way from just another example of the asinine marketing of johnson's (very good, & at times brilliant) music. & of course, someone working for gibson.com making up a name for a tuning ("devil's tuning") & acting like it has existed for generations. & also said person not knowing that open A & open G are both spanish tuning.

[dj]

Is it so insane to think Blacks picked up the Open G not from a parlor song, but from real-life Spanish people?

I have no doubt that Spanish Fandango was so named because the composer was copying or attempting to obtain the feel of a Spanish guitar performance.  But it's also obvious that there were a lot more copies of Worrall's Guitar Tutor and other arrangements of Spanish Fandango, printed and unprinted, floating around the South in the last decades of the 19th century than there were Spaniards (or Central and South American heirs of a Spanish musical tradition).  And it doesn't seem that any Spanish or Latin American songs entered the Southern folk musical tradition (excepting, of course, in southern Texas).

(As an aside, Michael, I do agree that Hawaiian music may have influenced early blues guitar somewhat.  Though again, what's the chicken and what's the egg?  As someone whose great-great-great, great-great, and great-grandfathers stopped at Hawaii on whaling voyages (and whose great-grandfather ate dinner with Queen Liliuokalani on occasion), I can say that there were a lot of African Americans on those ships.)

I'm up 3 degrees from the G MAJ in Open B♭ the tuning has notes F B♭ and D

 

But you're tuned to the Spanish intervals, so it's entirely accurate to say "I'm tuned to Spanish at B♭".

       

[mr mando]

Is it so insane to think Blacks picked up the Open G not from a parlor song, but from real-life Spanish people? Your conjecture is that Spanish tuning is eternally linked to a parlor song and you are right lots of people via vernacular have placed it in such light, but Open G as introduced by the Spanish existed prior to Henry Worrall. And all ethnic fascination aside, brass instruments aren't a hallmark of 19th century Russo folk music.

It's not insane, but as Vestapol was picked up from and named after a parlor song, it would be highly inconsistent to deny the same for Spanish. Just my 2 cents.