Topic: (New) ladder braced guitars and string gauges

[Pan]

Sorry if this question seems stupid to most of you, but I've actually never played a ladder braced guitar.  They are virtually nonexistent in Finland. There might be good climatic reasons for this, but nevertheless I'm curious.

From previous posts on the matter, I understand that the prewar ladder braced guitars were mostly very lightly and cheaply built instruments, and usually can't take more than light gauge strings (correct me if I'm wrong)?

What about new guitars that luthiers build today? Are new guitars more solid, and could they take heavier strings? Or is this an oxymoron, and heavier strings should simply just always be associated with x -bracing?

If the guitars are built to take heavier strings (if that's even possible, with ladder bracing) is the desired "ladder braced sound" compromised?

I believe most of the new smaller bodied Gibson "historical remakes" and the like, are x-braced, for example. As was the 125th year Washburn anniversary model, if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

Pan

[dj]

Pan,

Three years ago, I asked Neil Harpe about stringing my c. 1930 Stella.  Here's his response:

In good condition, your guitar should be fine, even with medium strings. Just don't tune above concert pitch. Personally, I prefer the feel of light gauge. But if you intend to keep your guitar set up with high string nut and play with a slide, it should do great with the heavier strings.

 

[billdraper]

Interesting question. I have a prewar ladder braced Gibson Kalamazoo and was told to use light strings. But all the guitars back then were made thinner & lighter from what I understand, which makes them more 'care intensive' but which also makes them potentially more resonant.


Here is a website of a luthier who makes modern ladder braced guitars. There is probably information on recommended string guage.

http://www.johnhowguitars.com/

Here is an example of one of his guitars plus soundclips:

http://www.dreamguitars.com/sold/How_LadderBracedGC_4307.htm

More stuff:

 http://sheboyganbluessociety.blogspot.com/2007/12/john-how-ladder-braced-parlor.html

Bill

[Pan]

Thanks for your replies guys!

Maybe the old Stella's then are more robust things than the early Gibsons / Kalamazoo's?

Bill, we are well aware of the John How guitars. A while ago his "road trip guitar" made quite a positive effect on some of the forum members, before a road accident cut the experiment short. See this thread: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=4316.0 , I believe Bluesmiked's review on p. 3 is the same as on your last link. The dream guitars site seems very interesting, thanks for the link.
I have been many times at John's website, but to my knowledge, the string gauge issue doesn't come up.

Todd Cambio, from the Fraulini guitars, is also a forum member, and a fine luthier of ladder braced guitars; check him out: http://www.fraulini.com/ . He is, of course, well known here also. You'll find sound samples by Paul Geremia, on his site. Let's hope that the gentlemen in question will chime in.

Meanwhile, let's hear more about your opinions and experiences.

I realize, of course, that the string gauge alone is not the only factor, and that the scale length, playing action, and neck width and profile also contribute greatly to the playability of these instruments.

The reason I brought this subject up, is that I'm used to playing a dreadnought sized somewhat heavy-topped x-braced modern guitar with medium strings, and I wonder if my clumsy heavy attack on the bass strings would cause problems, should I try to adapt to a shorter scaled light strung instrument. I'm very interested in the sound of these smaller bodied ladder braced guitars. Also I've  have had some shoulder problems in the recent years, so a smaller instrument might help.

Cheers

Pan

[waxwing]

Hey Pan,

I just emailed Todd on another matter (string sets for a 12) and mentioned this thread to him.

I think with most models you would be fine. And that would be especially true with the mass produced models (can't think of their name right now) which I have heard described as "overbuilt" by Neil H. and others. And, generally, you're going to be working with a short scale. If you are thinking of getting a guitar from Todd or John, or Mike Hauver, who works with Neil, then certainly the builder could make any adjustments they felt necessary for the extra tension.

Anyway, let's see what Todd has to say. Haven't seen John How around since the traveling guitar promo.

All for now.
John C.

[Cambio]

I wouldn't recommend using mediums on a vintage instrument, unless you were tuning below concert pitch.  The old instruments can be a bit fragile, and it would be nice to preserve them for future generations.  I don't think the guitars were built with mediums in mind and it can cause too much top warpage, neck bow, bridge issues etc.
I have built new instruments for people who wanted to use medium gauge strings, but I never really thought that they sounded as good as lighter built versions of the same models, which had light gauge strings.
I do use fairly heavy gauges on my new 12 strings (not all old ones can handle heavy gauges), but they have a long scale and are tuned down to B.  I look at it like this, you wouldn't put cello strings on a violin, and you wouldn't put violin strings on a cello.
I hope that helps,
Todd

[billdraper]

I have two ladder braced and they are different from x-braced. The sound is quicker louder punch direct...hard to explain. Because of this, the light strings go well with the sound and less effort is required to make a big sound. Combine this with smaller and lighter and the experience becomes nicely enjoyable. I bought one on ebay from a very nice fellow out of Portland...just a hobby collecter. Nice old solidwood noname maybe a custom...very enjoyable to play. I use light strings and I can use a pick if I'm light with it and the sound is punchy rythmic vwery nice. The action is very fast as set up by a very good luthier who also put in a new bridge and a maple bridge plate so steel strings can be used. I have silk and steel on it now and play it for hours.

But I love dreadnaught guitars and the playing experience and sound is very different.

Here is picture:






I'd love to get a modern one so I'll be keeping an eye on the How, Fraulini and Hauver sites.

I've talked to Niel some too and would love to get a Stella....Man I have to win a lotto I think.

Bill   

[Pan]

Todd, I would like to thank you for your very honest and professional advice.

I think I need to get more familiar with shorter scales and lighter strings for now.

Bill, that's a beatiful guitar, thanks for the picture.

Pan

[unezrider]

hello friend,
todd brings up an interesting thing i had never thought about before; how the older instruments weren't built with mediums in mind. i was always under the impression that all there was were heavier gage strings way back when. but it would make sense. as i understand it, the lighter the top, the less heavy of a string it takes to get the top to vibrating to it's full potential. & as i learned from a little research wax did in a past post, the real jump tension wise in strings from lights to mediums is on the wound third, compared to an unwound third. so maybe the unwound thirds are an important consideration as well. just more things for me to think about.
chris

[harpe]

The string gauge that one prefers is a frequent topic of conversation amongst guitar players nowadays. But, string gauge is a recent developement. Back in the old days, the conversation would have been about what brand of string, not gauge. Different brands were heavier than others. The current trend with 12-string players wishing to have "Lead Belly" gauge strings is a good example. Mr Ledbetter used extremly heavy gauge strings. But it is doubtful that he went up to the counter in his local music store asking for a .021 high E string (or whatever gauge he happened to use). Most likely, he bought a set of Mapes brand or a similar brand of very heavy strings. There was no such thing as a "12-string set" of strings until the 1960s. So back in Lead Belly's era a set of Mapes brand strings would have been a good choice for him.  Each set of Mapes strings came with an extra 1st, 2nd & 3rd string.

Like Todd, I think it smart to use lighter gauge strings on vintage guitars. But I would say this for all guitar brands, whether it's a Stella, Martin, Gibson, or some other maker. I think that the longer scale instruments such as Stella grand concerts and jumbos (6-string or 12-string) should not use strings any heavier than medium, even if tuned very low. I would NEVER suggest going the "Lead Belly" route on a vintage Stella 12-string. I see no reason for doing so, since these instruments sound fantastic, even with light gauge strings.

Neil Harpe

[billdraper]

Here is a soundclip of that parlor above with silk and steel...listen around :54 sounds kinda spanish maybe nylon stringish ...light! Not very country blues-ish though so I'm missing the point here. But I thought I'd carry through and post anyway.

http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/srplayer.php?type=hipriv&trackid=53688

Here is another bluesy one

http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/srplayer.php?type=hipriv&trackid=54132

Bill