Topic: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[wildcotton]

I may  be hijacking my own post here, but it's related.  I've learned how to play BLJ's "Black Horse Blues" from BLJ's version, sparked by  Paul Rishell's,.  But I'm having lots of trouble playing it and singing it at the same time.  Most songs I can put the two together, but this one is really tough.  Anybody got any tips for playing in one direction and singing in the other?

If Blind Lemon Jefferson can do it, why can't I do it?  (Ha!)

Jeff

[uncle bud]

Hi Jeff. I split this post off into it's own topic since I thought it might get a better response. Plus any excuse for another thread on Blind Lemon. 
I know a number of people here have worked on the guitar part for Black Horse. Whether they've got so far as to include the vocals is another story. I have to some degree, half successfully. I know Frankie's got it down. I played the guitar part until I could do it without thinking, before even attempting to get the vocal in. One thing Paul Rishell pointed out when teaching this was to land on the G bass in the bass run when you are singing the word "me" in "Tell me what time..." and to associate various words in the lyrics with the strong downbeats:
"Tell ME what TIME do the TRAIN... etc" Lemon's actually a little looser than that I think, but it can get you going then you can play around with it a bit.

Edited to add: Also, sing it so freaking loud you can barely hear the guitar notes to screw you up.

[wildcotton]

Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff

[Chun]

Funny ...I was just working on BHB this morning. I have been playing this thing for about two years...I have the guitar part nailed...whenever I try to sing this with playing though everything just falls apart. Thanks for the suggestion about hitting the G note with ME...Ill have to try that. Now that I think about it...pretty much most every Blind Lemon song is tough to try and sing and play at the same time...I guess it has something to do with how unconventional his playing is as hes not hardly ever doing the boom-chuck thing and he's very crooked. Ironically I think this is what makes his playing so great, its just incredibally hard to do if you werent raised on it so to speak. I believe that banjochris does a pretty nice version of this as does Frank apparently. Any suggestions guys?

[uncle bud]

Hi Chun - You're right, singing Blind Lemon can be a real high wire act. Some stuff is easier in terms of fitting singing over the playing, like Wartime Blues, Beggin' Back or Easy Rider. I'm usually working on some Blind Lemon piece or another at any given point, still haven't got any of it completely down, but when I do get the singing going over one of those crooked guitar parts it's a particularly good feeling. Chock House Blues is my current, long-time Lemon project and includes a Black Horse-like verse that's even harder to sing over than Black Horse, I find. As I mentioned above for Black Horse, I find something that helps in singing over these trickier Lemon parts is to use certain notes or beats as cues and landing places. It's partly about the independence of the parts but also partly weaving the vocal into the odd rhythms of the guitar parts. The trick is that these cues and landing spots are passing by so quickly. Like I said, I haven't mastered it, but I'm progressing slowly but surely. I'll try and point out some of these spots for me in Black Horse over the weekend.

When Rishell taught this at PT, I believe it was the song the launched him into his great speech about country blues being primarily vocal music, not guitar music, and he compared singing to going off a ski jump. Black Horse, like a lot of Lemon, is definitely a ski jump.

[uncle bud]

Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff - meant to comment on this but forgot. Ari's video on Lemon is really great, essential for anyone interested in Lemon. It is not yet available in DVD format though. Which is a shame really because I'm sure most of the stuff that Grossman hasn't converted to DVD is just sitting on the shelf at this point. Most people just don't want to buy VHS anymore. At least not for $30. I'm sure a lot of it never sold like hotcakes to begin with and hence the back-of-the-line status, but I wish SGW would just bite the bullet and do it all. Homespun seems to have converted pretty much all of their material.

Anyway, the video is great, worth every penny. I don't recall singing tips on it though.

[Baird]

Ari's Blind Lemon Video is available on DVD : http://guitarvideos.com/video/dvd/808dvd.htm

[Baird]

Hey Weenies,

Just curious if anyone has had any luck figuring out 'Dry Southern Blues' by Blind Lemon Jefferson.

It seems to me like he's playing out of C position (pitched at B...): the turnarounds feel like they are in the    'Bad Luck Blues' bag...

What I really can't get to sound right is the bouncy high stuff that he plays between the vocal lines.  Played out of the E shaped C chord at the 8th fret, all of the notes are available, but it is hard to get the bounce. It makes me think that he's using a tuning or a right hand trick? Is there some right hand trick he's employing to get such a lively bounce?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Baird

[Slack]

It seems to me like he's playing out of C position (pitched at B...): the turnarounds feel like they are in the    'Bad Luck Blues' bag...

This is correct.  Here is a nice BLJ resource:

http://www.donegone.net/?page_id=15

[uncle bud]

Hi Baird,

Yes, out of C position, a bit low. It has some similarities in terms of chords, riffs and fingerings to some of Lemon's many songs in C like Chock House, Mosquito Moan, Bad Luck Blues etc., but is obviously played rather differently in terms of the rhythms, which damned if I can get right now. Tricky to say the least trying to figure them out with the vocals over top, which sit over the quasi-strummy pattern Lemon is playing rather oddly to my ear!

I think the main C chord under the first vocal line is playing back and forth on the 2nd fret of the G string, the open G, and the first fret of the B string. After his F chord, he does that bass run up to an Eb note on the 4th string that's so characteristic of his C material. Almost sounds like he plays a chord here as well. The V chord, G7, is played somewhat like the V chord in Bad Luck Blues, again with that back and forth riff on 2nd fret of the 3rd string and the open 3rd. The record is in truly bad shape, and it's one of my favourite Lemon tunes.

I'll be curious to see what others have to say.

Cheers,
andrew

[Baird]

On second thought: I'm trying to play it now in C capoed at the 3rd freet to make it out of the A position. That makes it a bit easer to hit the C5 in the choppy high part between the vocals. Not really certain that I hear the low F, so capo on 3rd fret might be viable.

[Johnm]

Hi Baird,
It is definitely played out of C position, as Uncle Bud, John D., and Frankie have it.  The jumpiness of touch that you allude to is achieved by Lemon bringing his thumb up to the third string, mostly in the following rhythm, with beats indicated above the bars and what is being hit by the thumb in each beat:
       1          2            3        4                 1           2            3           4       
   |5th str.   Open       Rest   3rd str.     |  open      3rd str.    open      3rd str.  |
    3rd fret  3rd str.             2nd fret        3rd str.  2nd fret   3rd str.   2nd fret

The thumb rest on the third beat of the first measure is pure Lemon--genius!  He hits a little interior pick-up on the first or second string on the + of the third beat in the first measure and is then hitting either the first or second string (or both) on the + of each of the beats after that. 
What happens on the third string in this passage is much like what Rev. Davis does on the third string in his version of "Candyman", but with the third fret of the fifth string that the Rev. played eliminated once the activity starts.
One of the amazing things about "Dry Southern" is that it is actually pretty darn left-hand friendly, though at the tempo Lemon takes it, it is hard to think of it being very friendly in any way!  Have fun with it.
All best,
Johnm 

[uncle bud]

Hi Baird,

While you could try it capoed -- I actually tried it fretting there, no capo, momentarily, before my first post, just because there is indeed an odd sonority to the poor acoustical recording and I was playing with the tone -- I would guess that Lemon wouldn't have played it that way. Doesn't mean you can't! But since the huge majority of his C tunes have numerous licks in common out of first position, I can't see why this one would be any different. I believe Lemon used this Candy Man-like C-chord riff that adds the A on the G string in Hot Dogs as well, for the V7 - I section, where again the open 3rd string and 2nd fret of the 3rd string are rocking back and forth.

It occurs to me that, perhaps coincidentally, that C chord (whaddya call it, a C6?) position X3x210, is a position he uses in some of his E-major songs, for that beautiful turnaround that moves the position up two frets then walks it down fret by fret. E.g., Piney Woods Money Mama, Oil Well Blues and the like.

BTW, I just have to say I love the oddball chord intro to this song of A7 G7 C. He does it in Beggin' Back too. Is it just me or is this weird?

[Johnm]

You are right, Uncle Bud, about Lemon using the same rocking motion between the fifth and sixth of the I chord in many of his E blues, as well as his C blues.  And Tommy Johnson used the same rocking motion in D for his "Canned Heat Blues".  What's particularly cool about Lemon's use of the motif in C is that the rocking between the same two notes against the V chord produces movement from the I note of the V chord to its ninth, since he is fretting the seventh of the V chord up at the first fret of the first string.  Lemon doesn't do it, but you could use the same rocking motion between the same two notes over the IV chord and get a movement from the second to the third relative to that IV chord.  It's a great example, what Lemon does, of taking what the position gives you.
It isn't just you, the move from A7 to G7 to C is a surprising one, for Lemon omits the expected II7 chord, D7, which would complete the chromatic descent from the third fret of the first string to the open first string.  Riley Puckett has a similar progression in his "Poor Boy", played in F, when at the end of the progression he goes from F to D7 to C7, skipping the II7 chord, G7, along the way.
All best,
Johnm
 

[banjochris]

Hey guys --
another really good tune with that A7 to G7 to C chord change is Frank Hutchison's "Old Rachel".
Chris