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Next time the bossman hit me, I'm gonna give him a big surprise - Lightnin' Hopkins, Penitentiary Blues

Author Topic: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fascinatin' mysteries  (Read 2839 times)

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Offline JohnLeePimp

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Here's the results of a google search - seemingly this is the session were he was recorded along with the awsome "Arkansas Johnny Todd" (Lane Hardin, who evidently is not King Solomon Hill), Big Bill Dotson and Leroy Simpson :

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Anthology-Of-The-Blues-Blues-From-The-Deep-South-Archive-Series-Vol4/release/2092931

and there was supposed to be a picture of him above that of a "Willie Trice", but it's 404ed

http://www.muzic-world.com/David+Wylie/Similar

So does anyone have info or possibly pictures of the artists of these recordings - if you don't I recommend you search for those names on youtube cause they're pretty slick

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 11:07:54 AM by Johnm »
...so blue I shade a part of this town.

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 08:51:35 AM »
Ah who indeed?  :)

Ever since Frank Scott put Pinetop Slim on the Kent compilation Blues From The Deep South (Kent KST 9004, 1969) Slim and the other "unknowns" (Hardin, Todd, Dotson & Simpson) became the object of much debate in blues magazines of the time.

John Cowley discussed Pinetop Slim in Blues Unlimited112 (Mar-Apr 1975) in which, from memory, he put forward the tentative suggestion that Slim and Lane Hardin may have been one and the same.

After 35 years I doubt the Cowley speculations will mean much?

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 08:57:40 AM »
For the record here's the entry from Fancourt & McGrath's The Blues Discography ( p. 443)

PINETOP SLIM
V/g.   
             Atlanta, 23 February 1949
MM 1035   Applejack boogie   Colonial 106
      Applejack boogie [alt tk] Kent KST 9004
MM 1036   I?m gonna carry on Colonial 106
      Mean old Frisco   Ace(E) CDCHD 1057
      John Henry        Kent KST 9004
      Poor boy       Kent KST 9004
      Baby please don?t go   Ace(E) CDCHD 1057
      Wonder if I?m right or wrong   unissued
      Fast life   Kent KST 9004

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 10:51:01 AM »
Couldn't contain my curiosity, unearthed BU 112 and OCR'd said feature which John C probably won't thank me for but........

Pinetop Slim   A Tentative Identification?

A singular performer, judging b recorded evidence. Pinetop Slim ranks as one of the top post war 'country' blues enigmas. Frank Scott has reported that 'Pinetop Slim was discovered in 1949 by Joe Bihari. He was playing and singing on a street corner in Atlanta. Georgia and Joe took him to a radio station to record [sleeve notes to Blues From The Deep South Kent (LP) 9004, 1969]. According to his discography in Blues Records (p. 379), Slim recorded seven titles at this session on 23 February 1949. Of these seven titles, four together with an unlisted one, Fast Life are available on the Kent album. Interestingly this album has an alternate take of Applejack Boogie to the one issued on 78 (Colonial 106) and reissued on Country Blues Classics Vol. 2 [Blues Classics (LP) 61]. Alternate takes of other titles may, therefore exist. In BU 73 (June 1970) Frank Scott stated that Slim had recorded ten titles at this session so Fast Life could be one of three undocumented titles or possibly, Wonder If I'm Right Or Wrong mistitled.

On all his issued recordings, Slim plays the guitar using a very distinctive 'bottleneck' technique. In this instance, judging by other recordings I have heard on which the performer produces a similar 'bottleneck' sound (for example Reverend Jack Harp; Baby Tate) the slider he uses is probably the back edge of a knife or a like metal implement. As well as an easily distinguishable guitar technique Slim has a recognizable vibrant and occasionally gutteral singing voice.

I have heard no other post war blues recording, by persons sounding remotely like Pinetop Slim (although this obviously does not mean that none exist). There is however one pre war blues artist who might well be either Slim himself or a close influence; that is Lane Hardin.

At a Chicago session for Bluebird on Sunday 28 July 1935, Hardin recorded two songs, Hard Time Blues and California Desert Blues. They were issued on Bluebird B 6242. A total of twenty six titles were cut at this session and some of the other participants, Walter Davis, Big Teddy Edwards, Pinetop and Milton Sparks are known to have come from St. Louis and it is conceivable that Hardin may have travelled with them. It is likely that he was a rambler, judging by the lyrics to his one reissued title California Desert Blues [Roots (LP) RL 319] which also suggest that he had memories of the First World War for they refer to the Hindenburg Line. Thus if Hardin had been an active participant in that war, by 1935 he would probably have been in his late thirties.

Aural comparison of California Desert Blues with Pinetop Slim's recordings of fourteen years later shows some resemblance between the two, for both Slim and Hardin have similar voices and guitar techniques. Differences that do exist could be accounted for by the fourteen year gap in recording dates. Certainly Slim's repertoire, which includes such pre blues titles as John Henry and Poor Boy Long Way From Home, suggests that he may have been just over fifty years old when he recorded the age Hardin might have been in 1949.

Hardin's Hard Time Blues may provide further clues (can anyone supply a tape?), so too may Joe Bihari. He might remember Pinetop Slim's approximate age for Slim was the first artist Joe recorded in the 'field'. There is also the matter of the tradition that Hardin (and Slim, if they are two different persons) represents. Are there any more performers who play 'bottleneck' guitar in this distinctive way and if so, do they come from a specific localized area? Whether or not Slim and Hardin are one and the same person, their blues recordings are definitely of a high quality.

Frank Scott suggests that Slim was an Atlanta bluesman but this seems improbable for he sounds unlike any known Atlanta stylist. He might however be from further south, from Alabama or Florida, those most undocumented of southern blues states.

There is no irrefutable evidence that Pinetop Slim is Lane Hardin, only the aural connections I have suggested so the subject is worth further investigation, if only to disprove my theory! John Cowley (Blues Unlimited 112 March/April 1975 p. 19)

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 11:35:35 AM »
Interesting that John C should draw comparisons with the two players' guitar styles. Lane Hardin didn't play slide, did he? And the voices are very different too. Still, gets you into print...

Offline JohnLeePimp

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 12:25:30 PM »
Well thanks for the help Mr Hill... at least I know there isn't any info or a picture of Slim - just incorrect speculation

... well it was fun pondering about it none the less

* Just ordered "The Modern Downhome Blues Sessions Volume 4" for the alternate applejack boogie and some smokey hogg awsomeness

...so blue I shade a part of this town.

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 12:45:10 PM »
.....and some smokey hogg awsomeness
Mr Hogg has quite a few admirers here, though back in the 60s/70s he was consistently labelled by many a blues fan as "boring". Check out Stefan's superb SH discography.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 12:46:47 PM by Bunker Hill »

Offline jharris

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 02:07:17 PM »
An interesting post-war mystery. Here's what Jim O'Neal has to say about all this from the notes to The Modern Downhome Blues Sessions Vol. 4:

http://sundayblues.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/insert-1.jpg

http://sundayblues.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/insert-2.jpg

http://sundayblues.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/insert-3.jpg

Offline Stefan Wirz

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 12:03:49 PM »
... thank you all for drawing my attention to Lane Hardin !
Put those things I could find about him together at http://www.wirz.de/music/hardin.htm

Offline LD50

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Re: Who was Pinetop Slim... and other such fasinatin mysteries
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 01:54:12 PM »
I just got the The Modern Down Home Blues Sessions Vol. 4: Southern Country Blues Guitarists 1948-1952 CD in the mail two days ago. (A GREAT album, by the way.) I think it's safe to say that there is NO reason to think Pinetop Slim is Lane Hardin.

However I'm about positive that 'Arkansas Johnny Todd' IS Lane Hardin. Hardin may or may not play guitar on the weird hokum tracks where he sings. However, Hardin definitely plays guitar behind 'Leroy Simpson' on the two tracks where Simpson sings (13 Highway is an especially good song). And BTW, 'Leroy Simpson' is NOT Lane Hardin. The voices have NO similarities.

Whoever the tell 'Leroy Simpson' and Pinetop Slim were (I doubt we'll ever figure it out), the aural evidence is pretty unequivocal.  

The 'Arkansas Johnny Todd' tracks were probably recorded in LA, since Hardin settled in LA later in life (after WW2). And since we know that Pinetop Slim WAS found in Atlanta, that's another big reason not to equate PTS and AJT.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 02:01:27 PM by LD50 »

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