Topic: starting fingerstyle

[Murphydog]

I'm new to this site,its great! Having been little more than a dreadnought strummer these past years I have decided that 2005 is going to be the year I learn to play this music. my question is whether any of the lessons available here are appropriate for the first-timer or,if not,what you would recommend for learning the basics?

[ragtime_uk]

Hi Murphydog,
Great New Years resolution!  You could check out the Stefan Grossman website http://guitarvideos.com/
His videos/dvd's and books are the best in my opinion.  Probably take you a bit longer than just 2005 to learn it all though

Happy New Year,
Dave

[Murphydog]

Thanks Ragtime, theres a lot of stuff there! Any thing that you would particularly recommend as a starter?

[uncle bud]

Hi Murphydog, and welcome to Weenie Campbell. One of Grossman's videos that I used in the past when getting started on fingerpicking was this one:
http://guitarvideos.com/video/931.htm

Alas, it's not yet available on DVD it seems. There's a 2-DVD set from Stefan that I haven't seen although I'm sure it's up to snuff: http://guitarvideos.com/video/9667dvd.htm

JohnM can tell you whether some of his materials are approachable for beginners. I would think that some of the John Hurt stuff and Elizabeth Cotten as well would be approachable, particularly if combined with the other material above.
cheers,
Uncle Bud

[a2tom]

I also recommend Stefan's stuff.  Your best bet for where to start is to read in Stefan's own forum on EZ-board.  You can link to it via the Guitar Workshop website.  Stefan himself posts there and will be happy to guide you (or just read previous posts on this subject).

tom

[Murphydog]

Thanks for that. I see that lessons are available in dvd or audio cd formats, do you recommend one over the other?

[a2tom]

It's all a matter of preference I think.  If you read the other thread on tab, you'll see that there are different thoughts about the learning process.   There several modalities to acquire skills.  Listening to the original recordings, listening to the simplified/slower playing of the teacher, listening to the instructional/descriptive words of the teacher, looking at the hand position etc. of the original artist/teacher, and finally tab. 

I learned quite a bit from audio only lessons early on and am used to it.  I have a DVD or two more recently, and honestly find it to be "too much" from the lesson standpoint.  Too many things to try to pay attention to (sounds, images, my guitar, tab - overload!).  I find it easier and more productive to just listen and emulate.

But especially at the outset, you need to know where to put your hands, what motion to use, etc.  I find that good teachers (like Stefan and many others) can relate to me in a few careful words those issues.  But a visual image can't hurt that either.  When I have found DVDs very useful recently is when learning a song directly from the original artist.  Then, being able to look at their hand positions has occasionally proved invaluable to realizing what they were doing.  And seeing the player is a real treat.

On the tab issue,  I have indeed drifted away from tab considerably (in fact rarely use it now).  But as a beginner, tab is the almost universal and very useful for seeing the basics.  So, use it, but try really hard from the beginning not to rely on it.  The faster you develop your ear etc, the better off you'll be. 

tom

[Murphydog]

Thanks again, this is a very helpful thread for me

[Johnm]

Hi Murphydog,
As Uncle Bud mentioned, I do have two instructional videos of Mississippi John Hurt songs and one of Elizabeth Cotten songs/tunes that I did for Stefan Grossman.  They are all available in VHS and DVD formats.  Virtually everyone I have spoken to prefers the DVD format to the VHS because with the menu format it is easier to find what you are looking for.  The material on the videos varies with regard to how suitable it is for beginners.  "Spike Driver's Blues" and "Creole Belle" on vol. 1 of the John Hurt are good beginner pieces; "Frankie and "See See Rider" are more challenging.  I have also done videos (available only in VHS format) of the music of Bo Carter, Furry Lewis, and Robert Wilkins.  As with the John Hurt And Elizabeth Cotten videos, some of the tunes would work pretty well for beginners but others would be quite challenging.  If you care to order any of them, please order them from the Grossman website, since I do not always have them in stock.  Thanks and best of luck with learning to fingerpick country blues.
All best,
Johnm

[Richard]

Hello Murphydog
Just to add something from experience, that should you decide to go down the video road, do take copy of it before you start lest you end up with numerous knackered bits on the tape due to the constant start\stop and rewinds...

[uncle bud]

On the tab issue,? I have indeed drifted away from tab considerably (in fact rarely use it now).? But as a beginner, tab is the almost universal and very useful for seeing the basics.? So, use it, but try really hard from the beginning not to rely on it.? The faster you develop your ear etc, the better off you'll be.?

tom

Wise words from Tom. In the tab thead, I am perhaps pissing on tab a bit too much, as it was hugely helpful to me as a beginner. The key is to integrate its use with really listening to the music, listening for the variations that aren't included in basic tab, listening to see if the actual playing on the original differs from the tab, listening to other people's versions of the song to see how they've changed it, etc. I didn't do this as much as I should have at first as there was such a wealth of material from Stefan and others that it was the old kid in the candy store problem. Now I am trying as much as possible to figure stuff out on my own and in consultation with the great people and players on this board.

That said, I like the DVD format a lot and refuse to buy another VHS instructional video. I wish Stefan was able to convert existing VHS material to DVD more quickly. I'd buy the Willie McTell and Leadbelly lessons in a snap. I learn most of the pieces on DVD by watching the instructor, and very occasionally consulting the tab - that will no doubt be a bit different when I start attacking Ernie Hawkins' Gary Davis dvds, a huge body of work, and one where I think the tab will indeed be more helpful than usual given the complexity of the music. But with JohnM's and Ari Eisinger's material for Stefan, I rarely have to look at the tab as the explanations are so clear. When they are in dvd format the clarity is heightened by the instant access as well.

I remember Ari taught a Little Hat Jones workshop at Port Townsend a couple years ago. He was concerned because it was a class he thought of on impulse and hadn't prepared any tab for it the way he had done with workshops on Blind Blake and Blind Lemon. We told him, don't worry about it, it'll work great and it did.

All that meandering to say I agree that for a beginner, tab will get you going a lot faster. Just be aware of its limitations.

[Richard]

  I am perhaps pissing on tab a bit too much

Ah, UB you have a way with words

Aka the the tab issue, I think there is a place for it in, say, figuring a specific lick, phrase or whatever.

But, as for doing a whole song by tab that's something I couldn't cope with and that has to be via the watch\listen method - which in any event is a more thoughtful way of learning.

[boots]

I caught that. Thought it was a technical term. 

[thehook]

I can do a few minor things with the guitar. I am self taught and have been at it for a few years. I don't know any chords and don't know music theroy. I know these chords:
E,A,D,G,Am,F,Dm and a B. All of which are along the first few frets. I try to write music and like what I do but usually its really simple. Like varied strumming of 3 chord progressions. Woody guthrie once said if your using more than 2 chords your showing off. I have taken that to heart, however I would like to know more, I would like to be able to confidently fingerpick and eventually play some country blues. I have heard that MJH songs are easy to play and as he is one of my favorite all time musicians I went out and bought a book with accompanying (sp?) cds. Couldn't even do any of that. I am slowing getting some stuff down mainly the carter strum and some small decent sounding stuff with the C chord to the G but thats about it in the realm of moving forward. My question to you wonderful folks is where should I turn for basic, basic fingerpicking skills that I will use in advancing days, months and years. I am only 16 but I'm dedicated I try to play for an hour everyday and most the time when there is nothing going on I play guitar or banjo or blow some mississippi sax. Tv doesn't have much of a pull for me only music. I have seen many tapes and books. Even saw some fingerstyle begining courses on the computer which I think would work out well. What should I study, buy and spend my time working on if I am just starting to fingerpick with a yearning for real country blues? I know listening is way up there so as a result I have amassed a collection of roughly 70 country blues and old timey music and that has pushed away most metal and alternative stuff I would find myself listening to. Although most my friends are quite taken by it it doesn't seem to get on their nerves. Hell some have even taken an liking to some of the more 'catchy' stuff. I just find it said that lots and lots people know are about image and loudness rather than talent and experience. Anyway thanks for reading I look forward to all your stories, comments and suggestions. By the way I think the software beginner fingerstyle lessons focuses on developing skills that you use later on in the program for actuall blues, I believe it is offered through acousticguitar.com or acousticfingerstyle.com something like that.
thanks again
matt

[uncle bud]

Hi Matt,

You've got a lot of bases covered already. My first suggestion would be if possible find a teacher. If that's not possible in your area, you might want to check out some Stefan Grossman dvds. Stefan has a page here to guide you through some choices: http://guitarvideos.com/video/000notefromstefan.htm

Homespun Tapes has some stuff as well. I used a couple Happy Traum tapes way back that were pretty good at getting me going, along with Stefan's stuff. You might want to look at
http://www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg/prodpg.asp?prodID=1041&prodType=

A lot of John Hurt sounds easier than it actually is. Don't be discouraged!

[Slack]

HI Matt,

Sounds like you;ve got a good start.  I agree with UB about Mississippi John Hurt - sounds easier than it is... but if you like MJH try some out. I'd try out as many different sources as you can get - there are lots of free online sources to try, here is a good one I think:

http://www.ericlugosch.com/lessonhome.html

Tab comes in handy when first starting out.  The main thing is to have patience with yourself - fingerpicking is not easy in the beginning - if it seems to impossible, step back and take it in smaller chucks... learn the pice in smaller bits and pieces.

Good luck - you are at a great age to start for a lifetime of satisfaction!

Cheers,
slack

[outfidel]

A couple of thoughts:

1) It's best to learn guitar from someone in person. If that's not possible/available, then the next best thing (for me, anyway) is video - particularly DVD. I find I learn much more effectively & efficiently by watching someone rather than just reading tablature out of a book.

2) It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: whether you're learning from a person or a video or a book, you need to listen to the music a LOT.

3) If you like Mississippi John Hurt, then I HIGHLY recommend John Miller's DVDs. John is the best at explaining fingerpicking clearly -- at tempo, slowed down, split screen showing the right and left hands, etc. Plus, his tablature is accurate.

[wildcotton]

In addition to these excellent suggestions, you might  try to find a local acoustic jam session that meets regularly.  That's not always easy to do (I know, what are the chances of finding a country blues jam anywhere?) but if you can find one, it's a great way to learn--even if you don't find much blues, you'll probably find some musicians that are willing to share the basics of fingerpicking and learn some songs.  Do  what the others have suggested here for sure, but also take advantage of what you can learn from other pickers wherever you can find them. 

Jeff

[Montgomery]

John Hardy, you desperate little man: Fingerpicking can seem intimidating at first, but learning to finger basic chords and strum was once intimidating too.  I've seen a lot of fingerpicking snobbery (not on this board), people who scoff at the idea of strumming.  Proper strumming is probably just as hard to learn as fingerpicking, but fingerpicking seems harder it because it usually comes later and so you have to reinvent the way you use your right hand.  Buy a Miss. John Hurt book (or the John Miller DVD) and practice the picking pattern for at least 10 minutes a day.   If you can bring yourself to practice that way for a week, you should notice a big improvement.  Before long, it will be second nature to you.  However, I think there's a danger in learning just from John Hurt because he does use basically one method of pattern picking without much variation, and this can sound repetitive and derivative.  Fingerpicking sounds impressive, and John Hurt had a distinct sound at the time, but now too many fingerpickers sound exactly like him (just not quite as good).  Learning a picking pattern is a good way to exercise your fingers but if you don't practice other patterns, or more varied picking, you will find you're not even able to deviate from the alternating thumb pattern.  John Hurt is a good introduction to fingerpicking, but too many people stop there.  Also, when you first start fingerpicking, you have to choose how many fingers you're going to use.  Many great players use just their thumb and index finger, while others use 3, 4, or all 5 fingers.  No matter how many you use, it's  going to be difficult at first, and if you learn to use only your thumb and index, it will be just as difficult if you have (or want) to train another finger later.  So start with 3, 4, or maybe 5 fingers, although the pinky seems superfluous for most kinds of playing.  A lot of books from the Grossman school will tell you to anchor your pinky on the guitar but I think this is a completely personal choice and is not necessary (I'm no expert player, but I've heard many great players who don't anchor their pinky).   As for chords, learning more of them is just going to take the same memorization skills that it took to learn the ones you already know.  Fortunately you know the most important chords and many of the chords you don't know are formed by using the same chord shapes at different places on the fretboard.  Buy a chord book and learn a few songs with chords you don't know and that should help.  Finally, while tablature is a great learning tool and I've learned a lot from it, the most important thing is to listen to the music and try to figure things out for yourself.  I say this as someone who used a lot of tab and whose ear has suffered as a result of it.  I've only recently stopped trying to read or write tab and try to learn from my ear only and it has helped me a lot.  I recommend downloading John Miller's ear training lesson, available on this forum, to help you with some ear training techniques.  Anyway, good luck and sorry if I've ranted and let me also say that I am a very mediocre guitarist and shouldn't be giving advice.

[thehook]

well thanks I think its nice you all did this for me. No teachers around here though. Do any of the teachers focus more on the basics than others cause that is basicallywhere I am .
http://truefire.com/agw/fsbnew.htm
http://www.acousticguitarworkshop.com/
what do you folks think of this?

[a2tom]

n[

[thehook]

the Guitar Worskshop? what is that? sorry was it talked about earlier, i'm out of it.

[a2tom]

oh, sorry.  Stefan Grossman's company that sells their instructional materials is call the the Stefan Grossman Guitar Workshop.  That's the web site:

http://guitarvideos.com/

tom

[BlindSockeyeSalmon]

I'll second the vote for Eric Lugosch's "Fingerstyle Academy" pages:

http://www.ericlugosch.com/lessonhome.html

Also, it's not really blues stuff, but to get the hang of the fundamentals of alternating-thumb picking, with very well-designed lessons for fingerpicking beginners, I'd recommend Mark Hanson's The Art of Contemporary Travis Picking:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936799005

This will get you ready for Libba Cotten or John Hurt stuff.

John

[Jimbo]

Hi John - Sounds like you're off to a great start anyhow, but here's my twopenneth:
Don't under-estimate the value of good strumming/rhythm technique - it's THE most important part in the early stages of learning (and will always be a valuable tool).

I forget the book I used (too many years ago for me to remember) but it basically recommended building in stages:

(1) Keep your 3 picking fingers together at first, plucking the 3 treble strings as one, whilst playing an alternating bass between E and A strings, and practice till 2nd nature.
(2) Change your Bass string alternate plucking from A string to D string, and practice....
(3) Separate your 1st (index) finger from the other 2 (to pick the G string) and maintain same bass string patterns.
(4) Separate your 2nd (middle) finger (from your 3rd (ring) finger (to pick the B string whilst 3rd finger picks the E string)  and do same bass patterns.
(5) Practice until all 3 picking fingers can work independently (with thumb working independently too of course)

A basic "Clawhammer" style of TIMRIMI (Thumb;Index;Middle;Ring;Index;Middle;Index) will get you well on your way to learning how to adapt to any fingerstyle (not just the great MJH).  It's worked for me as I find it has provided me with a solid foundation for playing all styles of folk, country, blues, rock, old standards etc.  I see many players who are good in one style of playing but can't adapt - there's a grave danger in relying on tab too much so I'd advise you to use it with caution.

One of the most difficult things for players learning fingerstyle is getting those fingers and thumb to work independently, yet in a dynamically and rhythmically co-ordinated way.  It's about getting both halves of your brain in gear at the same time too!

Trust me - a good basic and solid foundation is the key to a 1st rate technique.  Don't skimp on it.
"Walk, Don't Run" is a great song to play - and it's a good maxim to follow in your early stages of development.

Good luck - you've a lifetime of pleasure ahead of you.

[Smokin Bill]

Indeed, some John Hurt tunes are easier to play than others. I've had the Stefan Grossman book and CDs for several years, and I think I've got it all down except for "Candy Man," which I can't even begin to fake my way through! Does anybody else find that arrangement to be among his most difficult?

Some easier John Hurt tunes to learn are My Creolle Belle, Coffee Blues, Stagerlee, Spike Driver's Blues and Shake That Thing (which I think is actually a Papa Charlie Jackson song) and Nobody's Dirty Business, I've found.

At any rate, I thought I'd also mention the Fred Sokolow videos offered on Grossman's site (www.guitarvideos.com) are also quite good. I found his introductory blues and fingerpicking videos very helpful when I was just beginning to evolve from a strummer to a fingerpicker.

[Dom94]

Indeed, some John Hurt tunes are easier to play than others. I've had the Stefan Grossman book and CDs for several years, and I think I've got it all down except for "Candy Man," which I can't even begin to fake my way through! Does anybody else find that arrangement to be among his most difficult?

I think so,  Candy Man is one of the most difficult song to master especially the version with omitted bass in the john miller's Dvd, I'm going crazy...

[Norfolk Slim]

2 things:

I agree Candyman is tricky.

I don't agree that a solid strumming/ rhythm technique is an important foundation.  Handy of course, but by no means a pre requisite to finger pick. 

I certainly wouldnt describe myself as having any such technique.

[Johnm]

I agree with Norfolk Slim, and would add that one of the previous posts keeps alluding to Mississippi John Hurt's picking pattern.  In fact, John Hurt had no picking pattern, i.e., a repeating rhythmic figure, as you have had occasion to find out from working on "Candyman", Dom94.  One practice technique you may find helpful is to play the difficult passages with right hand only, first, just picking the appropriate open strings.  When you feel comfortable doing that, re-introduce the left hand, and you should find the passages easier to play.
All best,
Johnm