Topic: Charlie Patton's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Pan]

Okay, here's what I've got so far:

Patton:

  !          !         !       !          !        !        !       !          !          !
                       po
------0--3--0--------------!-----------------0--0--0--!------0--0--0--!--
-4(bu)----------1-0-- ---1-!-----------------1--1--1--!------1--1--1--!--
--------------------0------!-----------------0--0--0--!------0--0--0--!--
----------------------3----!--2--------------2--2--2--!------2--2--2--!--
---------------------------!---------------3-----------!--3------------!--
---------------------------!---------3-----------------!---------------!--

Johnson:

   !              !             !        !          !         !        !         !
    
-----0------3---0------0---------- !-----0--0--0------0--0--0--!--
-----4/5ho--0 --4/5ho--1--1--1--1-!-----1--1--1------1--1--1--!--
---------------------------0--2--0-!-----0--0--0------0--0--0--!--
------------------------------3--2-!-----2--2--2------2--2--2--!--
--0--------------------------------!--0------------0------------!--
-----------------------------------!----------------------------!--

I think Patton only bends the 1st note.  The lick ends in a 2/4 - bar with the C chord. It's very difficult to hear the starting of the lick because Pattons vocals are so strong. His irregular time is also driving me crazy, when I'm trying to play with the record!!!

Johnson hammers on rather than bends IMO. The rhythm is different because he starts with the bass note on the 1 beat. After the 2nd ho he shifts quickly to the 1st position to the C chord shape. As Uncle Bud pointed out, the bass notes should ring as half notes, which can't be shown in a tab. I think the B note is the open 2nd strg. heard with the high G, in between the hammer ons.

Cheers

Pan

Edited to correct the Patton lick: one bend and one pull-off.

Edited to correct the bassline of the Tommy Johnson lick: as Uncle Bud points out in this thread: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=6933.msg54959#msg54959 Johnson has his 5th string tuned down to G!

[waxwing]

Terry Robb worked thru Down the Dirt Road with me last Saturday He stayed over after the house concert and we spent most of Saturday talking blues, the Biz and working thru a few tunes. I told him I really wanted to learn this song and he really worked over the CD (recent Nevins Yazoo) to get this lick. He came up with a much simpler lick, but having gone back over it with Transcribe! at 50% my ears think this is pretty consistently what Patton plays, except for a few spots when he double strikes in a way that seems accidental. And Terry worked only with the Cd at full speed! Give it a try and see what you think. The first note of each triplet is the hardest to hear, but the others seem pretty clear to me. It's all playable while holding the C chord.

     |            |               |                |            |     |      |       |
----------------------------------------------------------------0----------------0---0---0---- 
-1-------------4---------------1----------------3----------1----1----------------1---1---1----
------------0-----0--------2------2---------0------0------------0----------------0---0---0----
----------------------------------------------------------------2----------------2---2---2----
-----3-----------------------------------------------------------------------3-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------3-----------------------

Terry also mentioned that Patton very possibly played it with a flat pick.

All for now.
John C.

[waxwing]

BTW, UB, have you listened to the last line of the 2nd verse again? I still think he says "Lord, I got somethin' to find that buh-a-astid with."-G-

All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

BTW, UB, have you listened to the last line of the 2nd verse again? I still think he says "Lord, I got somethin' to find that buh-a-astid with."-G-

I'll deal with the above first: Smoke another one, Waxy. 

Next, just to clear things up. Unless I'm reading it wrong, the tab you posted seems to be for the tag at the end of the form. Let's call that repeating 3-note pattern at the end of the form "the tag" for clarity's sake, since the confusion between the two riffs being discussed (across various threads) has occurred a few times now.

The tabs that Pan and I posted above are for the riff that comes after each of the first two lines of the verses. Our tabs are pretty similar. Pan's adding something a little different around the open high E. But essentially, they're the same. I was hitting the 5th fret of the 3rd string, where he is hitting the 1st fret of the 2nd string. Same note, different position. My position was based on the second bend of the 2nd fret/4th string: it's easier to get that C note at the 5th fret coming out of that. This move may have come from Paul Rishell - I don't recall.

Pan doesn't think that second bend is there, and I am leaning towards agreeing with him. Anyway, all that to say the main melodic pattern is the same in both tabs, with slightly different embellishments.

Overall, I don't think Patton plays the riff exactly the same every time, which would certainly be characteristic of him. For example, sometimes he seems to bend the 2nd string 4th fret, sometimes I think he hammers into it quickly as a grace note from the 3rd. The way he embellishes and varies his fundamental ideas is part of the great joy and misery of figuring out many of his tunes IMO.

Your tab based on Terry's work as I said seems to be for the tag:

     |            |               |                |            |     |      |       |
----------------------------------------------------------------0----------------0---0---0----
-1-------------4---------------1----------------3----------1----1----------------1---1---1----
------------0-----0--------2------2---------0------0------------0----------------0---0---0----
----------------------------------------------------------------2----------------2---2---2----
-----3-----------------------------------------------------------------------3-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------3-----------------------

This is the tag that I had referred to some time ago here: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=83&topic=1257.msg9276#msg9276

and now reproduce here (with added beat indicators for clarity - forgive my tab skills, I'm working freehand and hate tabbing things):

   |           |              |               |        |     |     |
---------------0---------------------------------------------------------0---0----0---
------------4--------------1--------------1--------1---------------------1---1----1---
---------0--------------------2---------------0--------------------------0---0----0---
-------------------------------------------------------------------------2---2--- 2---
--3-------------------3-----------------3--------------3-----------3-----------------
-------------------------------------------------------------3------------------------



The first note of each three beat pattern is indeed hard to hear as you mention. I would say that the string he plays on these beats is deadened mostly, and aside from the first group (the 0 4 0 in my tab above), I'm not sold yet on the 3rd string being the first note of the patterns, and have been playing a deadened C on the 5th string. I'm not sold on that yet either though. Could be a combination. Also in your tab, the third time the pattern occurs (the 0 3 0 or G D G), I am really not hearing that D.

The rhythm is not a triplet IMO, but more a repeating three-note pattern of two-sixteenth notes and and eighth note.


1   &    2    &     3
     ==   _     ==   _
    | |  |     | |  |
   x x  x     x x  x    etc.

Terry also mentioned that Patton very possibly played it with a flat pick.

I don't think so. When he goes to the IV chord in a C position up the neck, first at the 6th fret, then the 4th, there are bass notes on the 5th and 6th strings and treble notes on the 1st string sounding together on certain beats. You could fake the song with a flatpick and make it sound pretty damn close, but I think Patton's fingerpicking.

It's very interesting how much confusion and difference of opinion this song causes - both in lyrics (I'm goin' away to a world unknown/where I don't know/Illinois etc) and the guitar part. I have been working on this one on and off for years now. I play through it (most of the time!) and may brave a back porch posting one day in the future if I get something on tape I'm not completely ashamed of. But it is interesting to me that I have been shown the song by Paul Rishell, Paul Geremia, Michael Jerome Browne, and possibly some others I'm forgetting, and each one played the riff and tag under discussion differently. They all sound great but not necessarily "correct", and I think Michael actually came closest overall. I've also discussed the song with a number of other amateurs, and again, many different interpretations. It's a slippery tune, even with the remastering by Nevins.

There is also an amazing number of rhythmic devices going on in the song. The percussive snapping of the 1st string, the foot-tapping (sometimes on each beat, sometimes on 1 and 3), the rhythms created by the bass notes under the IV chord section, the sixteenths in the tag, the V chord that just hangs there, the spoken asides. So many things going on at once to create a perfect whole. It's an astounding tune.

[Pan]

Hi all

It's good for Uncle Bud to clear the question about the actual lick in question, I was really confused for a while, especially because I'm very poor at reading tab. I think the problem with the tab lies in the rhythmic notation.

I agree with Uncle Bud in that the rhythm discussed in the end or "tag" lick is two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth note, rather than even triplets.

I have a feeling that Patton doesn't necessarily play the "tag" part exactly the same way each time, which will of course  cause further confusion.

As for the "response" lick played in the bars 3-4 and 7-8, it could very well be that the C chord should be played in the 3rd position as Uncle Bud and Cheapfeet suggest. I have only the JSP recording, and no softwere to slow down the music etc., so anything I have suggested should be considered as a mere suggestion.

I think the multitude of opinions considering this tune speaks of the difficulty considering the sound quality in question.

To further muddy the waters, I have also a problem with the Tommy Johnson recording in question; the general consensus (to which I agree) has been so far that Johnson plays in standard tuning in C. After the lick mentioned in earlier posts Johnson plays a chord with a very high E not on the 12 fret 1st string with the G note on bass. It could be played x-10-x-(12)-x-12, for example. Or just the open 3rd or G string with the high E. That is followed with an open G string eighth note, then G7/F: xx300x and C/E xx201x, I think. So far no problem. But then I'm hearing a C chord played with G and possibly C on 6th and 5th strgs, 3rd fret played and the high E note at the same time. I just don't see how this is possible. Could it be some kind of an harmonic overtone or something? Any opinions?

Cheers

Pan

[uncle bud]

Hi Pan - The whole discussion is confusing to me!    That's part of the reason I posted as I did, just to clear things in my own mind.

I don't think I suggested the C chord is played in third position, did I? I'm pretty certain it's in first. We're talking about the brush strokes on the last four beats of the response lick?

[Pan]

Yes Uncle Bud I'm getting pretty confused myself...

I meant C note on 3rs stg 5th fret as opposed to 2nd stg 1st fret

Pan (i guess?)

[uncle bud]

To further muddy the waters, I have also a problem with the Tommy Johnson recording in question; the general consensus (to which I agree) has been so far that Johnson plays in standard tuning in C. After the lick mentioned in earlier posts Johnson plays a chord with a very high E not on the 12 fret 1st string with the G note on bass. It could be played x-10-x-(12)-x-12, for example. Or just the open 3rd or G string with the high E. That is followed with an open G string eighth note, then G7/F: xx300x and C/E xx201x, I think. So far no problem. But then I'm hearing a C chord played with G and possibly C on 6th and 5th strgs, 3rd fret played and the high E note at the same time. I just don't see how this is possible. Could it be some kind of an harmonic overtone or something? Any opinions?

Muddying the waters even further, both Document, on their original release, and JSP on the Legends of Country Blues set (wonder where they got their info? ), confuse Morning Prayer and Boogaloosa Woman.  The Tommy Johnson "reissue" on Document identifies the tracks correctly. If you have either the original Document, with the white cover, or the JSP set, Morning Prayer is in fact track 13, not track 12.

Pan, I listened and I hear what you're referring to. I think it must be an accidental harmonic or a weird overtone. If he was fretting the 2nd string at the 5th fret to get the E, he could conceivably be accidentally getting the harmonic at the 5th fret, 1st string, which would be pitched the same as the 1st string 12th fret. Why would he fret the 2nd string 5th fret? Not sure! To get more staccato? To have that and the open 1st string ring together?

[waxwing]

OK, yeah, i was confused. I thought all the discussion was about the tag lick which you had referenced in your first post to start this thread. The D note in the third figure (of 2 sixteenth notes and then an eighth note, falling on the beat - agreed) is very clear in the last verse and relatively clear in the two before that. I actually think Patton was generally playing the same thing each time and just mis-striking. Sacralige, I know, but it really seems like a set arrangement with very little variation outside of an extra beat in the first line of the second verse, the high bent note on "choppin" and the figure he plays in the V chord in the next to last verse, none of which seem really "improvisational", more like set bits.

What actually excites me most about the song is the vocal. It is just so powerful and microtonal. It's really a challenge to sing those last notes over the "response" lick. Whew! And you're right Andrew, the rhytmic interplay of the strums, the foot, and the hand on the guitar top are mind boggling, yet, virtually the same in every verse. A highly practiced piece, I think, one he had played for decades, and recorded at his prime.

As to "buh-a-astid", UB, a double shot of Black Bush says if we sit down and listen to it at PT you'll agree with me. I can't believe you've actually given it a serious listen. I think you're just goading me.-G- (mp3 attached)

Terry said fingerpickers hate it when he says that much of Patton's material was likely flatpicked. He said he and Fahey would listen to Patton constantly together, debating this issue, among others, and in the end they pretty much agreed. Anyway, he pointed out that when playing the C form F chord, a flat picker would naturally damp the open G string, so that, when strummed, all you would hear are the two bass notes and the two treble notes. And, as we know from John M and Suzy T's duet class, in the C form Eb the open G is a unison with the fifth string fifth fret. Actually, it always helps me to loosen up my hand while fingerpicking when I find out that something could be flatpicked, like Future Blues. And I remember Adrian, on IGS, mentioning he thought Green River Blues could have been flatpicked. I think it's all pretty interesting. I'm sure Charlie could do it all.

Another thing Terry pointed out was that 34 Blues had all the same licks as Down the Dirt Road, but was much slower and the vocal is somewhat softer.

Won't be able to respond 'til Saturday. Bein' a working stiff sure cramps my style.-G- And going to see Del, Stever, Suzy and Eric at the Freight directly after work tomorrow. Be out pretty late.

All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

Been a hectic weekend and I'll have a busy couple days before I can get into any detail on this. Wax, I've listened to this song more than any country blues tune I own, since I first bought the stuff. I did listen for your lyric and even thought I heard it once or twice, but it was no doubt the power of suggestion. Cheapfeet, I'm not near PEI but do get there on occasion.

[waxwing]

I think you are hearing too many notes in there, Pan. In every case, I hear Patton's emphasis on the beat: di-da-BUMP di-da-BUMP di-da-BUMP, with virtually nothing extraneous. Perhaps the JSP transfers are a lot messier than the Nevins/Yazoo issues?

I haven't had much time to post this week but late last nigh I figured out how to export snippets from Transcribe! slowed down to about 70% and this evening I will try to post as many as I can. Since they are very short files I should be able to keep the fidelity very high. I can also include the "buh-aa-asterd" line for UB and the G lick from the next to last verse, which I don't think you are hearing well. I hear it clearly as two different licks each repeated twice. the first a slide up (2nd to 5th fret) on the D string to an open G on the 1st and 2nd beat and a slide up on the B string (2nd to 5th fret) to an open E string on the 3rd and 4th beats.

I think you may be amazed at the clarity of the Nevins re-mastering if you haven't heard them yet.

All for now.
John C.

[Pan]

Hi Waxwing

I might very well be hearing too many notes.

I also have now the Nevins / Yazoo take. You are absolutely right about the quality of the re-mastering.

If you actually can post slowed down audio, that would be simply marvelous! I'm looking forward to this.

Cheers

Pan

[waxwing]

Good Morning, Pan. And whoever else wasn't up late over here. -G-

So, I worked the kinks out of the process. Transcribe! will export selected slowed down cuts back to the folder where it is reading the original sound file from (in my iTunes) as an aiff file (or wav for Windows). I can convert these to mp3 at the highest bit rate possible, stereo and still get nowhere near the 810 kb limit. Sounds pretty good. I slowed it down to 70% which is adequate to hear what is going on yet still maintains great sound quality.

As we noted before, the first note of each trill (for lack of a better word) is played so quickly and softly that it is hard to discern even at this speed. Perhaps the first note gets muted either accidentally or on purpose. I think the lick Patton means to play is as I tabbed it earlier. I can't find any reason not to think that he is playing the same note as the start of each trill as he means to end on. Part of my thinking is to keep it simple. Also, It does sound like the down beat of the measure is the bass C, at least most of the time. In the first verse he seems to miss the first sixteenth note open G and double strikes the Eb (which, indeed, may be slightly bent). In the second verse he inadvertently damps the eighth note on the fourth beat. In the third verse he misses the eighth note open G on the second beat, again double striking the Eb, but after as opposed to before. The fourth and fifth verses seem pretty clear as I have tabbed it and then in the last verse he seems to repeat the miss as in the third verse and you can kinda hear that he has released the slight bend when he strikes the Eb the second time, on the second beat, instead of the open G. And then he kinda muffs the last note again, too.

Anyway, thats how I hear it. What do you all think? I guess you could say that he is making all these changes on purpose, but I still think he is playing a set arrangement and really only plays it cleanly in the fourth and fifth verses. But as it can all be played holding the C chord, reaching with the pinky for the Eb on the 4th fret and moving the middle to get the 2nd fret of the 3rd string, the misses all sound good anyway.

Pan, are you creating the tab in something like TablEdit and then going to Print and then saving as a pdf which you can upload? I'll have to check that out. Not only are we dissecting this Patton tune, but we are streamlining the communication process, eh?

If you guys want, I'll do the same with the response lick, but not 'til Sunday or later.

So, UB, do you hear "buh-aa-asterd" or not?-G-

All for now.
John C.

[Edit] Well even tho' I was under 8 attachments I exceeded 1800kb so I'll put the rest in a second post.

[waxwing]

The rest.

[waxwing]

Hey, it works. Altho', Pan, you must be converting to a jpg, eh? Well, that's beyond me at this point, but you can download the pdf and it sure is a lot easier than typing out all those dashes.-G-

Okay, so here's the pdf of how I think Patton plays the turn around in the 4th and 5th verses.

All for now.
John C.