Topic: Frank Stokes--Playing Positions/Keys for his Recordings

[frailer24]

"Bedtime Blues". Stokes in A position. Blew my mind! That's the secret!

[frailer24]

Just ran the early take of "It's A Good Thing" through a program, it sounds right in F#. Definately Stokes.

[CanadianStringPicker]

Does anyone know the progression/chords Stokes plays on I Got Mine?

I've been trying to figure it out.

He's in the first (C) position key of D.

I've been messing with D, G, A. I just can't get it to flow, I'm assuming standard tuning with no capo as far as my ears can pick up but I'm just starting to train my ears so I'm having a hard time. I think I'm hearing a sharp but it's not a minor (the F#m) and the C# doesn't sound right either.

Can anyone get me on track here?

[GhostRider]

Cdn:

Alex from Calgary here.

I Got Mine uses just the I, IV and V chords in the key of C, C, F and G, with occasionally their sevenths, capoed up two frets. Nothing fancy here!

Welcome.
Alex

[CanadianStringPicker]

Thanks!

Maybe that's why it didn't sound right lol

I was following the previous post on this thread with the listings of his songs.

It had him listed as playing it in the key of D in the C (1st) position.

I'll give those a try and see how it comes out.

Good to see a fellow Canuck on here Sir!

Cheers!

[Johnm]

Hi CanadianStringPicker,
Re using the tables that list position and key, key is where the guitar is sounding.  Position is how the piece is played.  So if the song sounds in D, but is played in C position, the guitarist is fingering in C and is either capoed to the second fret or tuned a whole step high.  I hope this clarifies how to use the table, and all of the other similar tables use the same format, so that in terms of playing a piece, the crucial thing is the position that it is played in, not the key that it sounds in.
All best,
Johnm

[CanadianStringPicker]

I guess I'm pretty dense or at least I'm confused lol

I always thought that the Key would denote what chords are being played and the position was the area they were played in?

As in the key of D in the C position for a basic I IV V blues would be chords D, G, A in the first position (C position)

Is there a good place/thread to go on here to get some basic theory instruction/refresher?

Thanks for your reply Sir.

[Johnm]

I don't think a refresher is needed.  The chord positions are those that go along with the position listed in the table.  They sound in the key listed by virtue of a capo being used.  In other words, base your playing on the position, not the key.
All best,
Johnm

P.S.  Just to expand on this a little bit, when it comes to playing Country Blues, what is crucial in playing a piece the way it was played is not the key that it sounds in, but the position that it was played out of.  Two examples:  Furry Lewis played his "Dryland Blues" out of E position in standard tuning, but tuned a whole step low, so that it sounded in D.  Similarly, Charley Jordan played "Big Four Blues" out of E position in standard tuning, but capoed to the fourth fret, so he sounded in A flat.  No amount of fussing around in D position in standard tuning is going to get you to "Dryland Blues", because you don't have the necessary low D on the sixth string to play the song.  Similarly, if you try to play "Big Four Blues" in A flat without a capo, it's not going to happen.  Once you go after these songs using the E position, adjusted to sound in the same key that they sounded on the original recordings, it will fall into place, because all of the notes you want to hit are accessible in the appropriate position.  I hope this helps.

[CanadianStringPicker]

I think I understand what you're saying.

Just for example, say I'm playing Furry Lewis' Stack O'Lee blues.

I play it with a capo on the 2nd fret, standard tuning, Progression is C,F,C,G. All played in what I thought was the first position relative to the capo being applied to the frets.

What position and key would this be in the way you're describing this?

If I'm following you, this would be "C" position Key of D?

 I've just never heard of any position on the guitar referred to as a note. Always as 1st, 5th, 8th position etc

Sorry for the "noob" questions, I'm trying to learn as much as possible here.

Thanks for the patience Sir.

[Johnm]

Hi CanadianStringPicker,
Yup, you've got it exactly.  Thanks for your patience--I make the mistake some times, I think, of assuming that everyone is used to the things that I'm used to, also.  Not always the case, but you have the meaning I intended.
All best,
Johnm

[CanadianStringPicker]

Alright then!

Thanks a bunch.

I'm trying to train my ears to pick chords and notes from the old recordings I dig so much.

I'm not very good at it. I learned guitar on my own, mostly from tabs which I regret drastically now lol

I'm teaching myself theory now so I can teach myself fingerstyle blues.

This site is great, thanks again.

[Rivers]

CSP, retuning the instrument really only becomes an issue when you're trying to play along with the original recordings, and/or generally wish to emulate the original, since slacker- or tighter tunings do get you a very different effect, and of course the vocal may work better for one's voice.

So to reiterate, the protocol that has evolved on weenie to describe this integral aspect of country blues is:

a) use 'position' to mean the chord shape, regardless of capo placement (or tuned down- or upness).
b) use "sounding at" (and sometimes, interchangeably, "pitched at") to indicate said degree of tuned downness, upness, or capo placement.

So if you see someone say, "Played out of C position, sounding at/pitched at C#" means play a C chord while either capoed at 1, or tune up a half step, to start playing along with the recording.

Just to make it even more interesting  ... also note that often the original recordings are not exactly a half step or whole step etc up or down, they may be a few cents sharp or flat, due to the artist ear tuning without a reference note, or maybe they just liked how it sounded there. Also factor-in the possibility of the effect of mechanical speed variations introduced somewhere within the ancient recording chain or playback machine. We indicate this aspect sometimes by adding a '+', '++', '-', '--' to the "sounding at" note.

So "Sounding at / pitched at C#-" means "a little flat of C#", "C#--" means "pretty darn flat of C# but, still, sharper than C+"... you might have to think about that one a little!

Probably we should add this information as a sticky at the top of this board.

[CanadianStringPicker]

Thank you Sir.

That clarifies it immensely for me.

It wouldn't hurt to have it stickied at the top of this section with your explanation and a couple examples using really familiar country blues songs.

I've been reading up older threads and a few had the same confusion that I was going through.

Cheers!