I think it's the Ida Cox/Charlie Jackson session that was 1925 - Frank Stokes recorded his song in Aug '28 as Old Man Ned originally stated. And yes, I agree, it sounds to me like he took the idea and did something different with it.
You're completely right. i was looking at details of the two when I posted. With my mind on other particulars I got them confused.
The important date is the Alberta Hunter recording in May 1921 ? for her very first recording session.
It's hard to tell without a time machine. Perhaps the song existed before 1921 much as Frank Stokes sang it. The vaudeville version has obviously been crafted by a songwriter, but the main strain sounds just as 'folky' as the Frank Stokes and Barbecue Bob songs.
To my ear, the Ida Cox/Charlie Jackson is a different song ? inspired by the early song. And (again, to my ear) the Leroy Carr song is his personal improvement on that Cox/Jackson song.
Funny Papa Smith did a version of "How Long" in 1931 titled "Before Long", the last song he recorded which survives. If you really hate an out-of-tune guitar, don't listen to this one...
The Barbecue Bob song appears to be a version of "Corinna, Corinna".
? DATE TITLE WORDS MUSIC NAME & LOCATION OF PUBLISHER
04/10/20 How Long, How Long: Absent Blues T. Everett White T. Everett White T. Everett White, St. Louis
VERSE
Down in my heart there lies a scream of misery
My daddy left and didn't have a word to say
Lonesome, I'm awfully lonesome
For people, he was the grandest man
In all this world to me
CHORUS 1
Now if you see my own dear daddy
Please tell him I said to hurry home
The days so lonesome, the nights so long
I ain't had no loving since he's been gone
CHORUS 2
I can't forget the way he used to hold me in his loving' arms
And call me mama, oh sweet sweet mama
Daddy, sweet daddy, how long how long?
I never never never never : can forget that day
When you called me baby : how long how long
I ain't had no loving : since my baby gone
If you see my baby baby baby : tell her to hurry home
I ain't had no good feeling : how long how long
And I'm on my way babe : how long how long
I can't forget the way : she held me in her loving arms
She called my papa : oh sweet daddy
Now tell me pretty mama : how long how long
Down in my heart : there's screams of misery
Corinne she left me : without a word to say
She was the kindest one : all in this world to me
If you see my own dear mama : tell her hurry on home
Bout the days are lonesome : and the nights so long
I ain't had no lovin' : child since you been gone
How long : evening train been gone
Yes I'm worried now : but I won't be worried long
Now I went to the station : fold my arms and moan
Asked the operator : how long my rider been gone
I asked the operator : how long the train been gone
Your train been gone : ever since this morn
Down to the depot mama Lord : I looked up on the board
Lord I asked the ticket agent : how long the southbound train been gone
I went to the depot : and looked up on the board
Oh I asked the operator : how long that train been gone
I said ticket agent : how long your train been gone
Say yon go the train : that this fair brown left here on
I went to the depot : looked up on the board
I asked the conductor : how long has this eastbound train been gone
"How Long How Long" was first recorded as "How Long Daddy How Long" by Ida Cox with "Papa" Charlie Jackson on banjo in 1925 for Paramount Records (Paramount 12325). The song was later transcribed and published in a Paramount songbook. The form is of eight measures, split into a four-measure verse and a four-measure refrain. Harmonically the melody stays in one chord, using the flattened seventh scale step as an inflection dissonance during the second four measure. Because of the eight-measure length and the simple nature of the tune, it may be of unknown origin and transmitted by tradition.
It is also said that the song was among the first blues learned by Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.
I finally got round to looking it up in the Encyclopaedia of the Blues edited by Edward Komara.
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ecTbEqyyiVLgtA3v6l3o-wDfEs&w=201&h=270&c=7&o=5&dpr=2&pid=1.7)
There aren't too may entries for songs, but there is one for How Long How Long written by Komara himself. He begins:Quote from: Encyclopedia of the Blues"How Long How Long" was first recorded as "How Long Daddy How Long" by Ida Cox with "Papa" Charlie Jackson on banjo in 1925 for Paramount Records (Paramount 12325). The song was later transcribed and published in a Paramount songbook. The form is of eight measures, split into a four-measure verse and a four-measure refrain. Harmonically the melody stays in one chord, using the flattened seventh scale step as an inflection dissonance during the second four measure. Because of the eight-measure length and the simple nature of the tune, it may be of unknown origin and transmitted by tradition.
[The American 'measure' = the British term 'bar'.]
I was puzzled by the harmony bit, until I realised that he was talking about what Ida was singing ? not what Charlie was playing. Anyway, I listened afresh to the Cox-Jackson record, and I think I have a clearer idea of what Carr and Blackwell did with the song.Komara points out that Carr re-used the music with You Got To Reap What You Sow
- Harmony for one thing. Carr's tune ? the tune he sings ? is much richer.
- Text. I was mistaken in thinking that Carr originated the pairing of How Long How Long with the train been gone question, but he did do something different with it. The Cox-Jackson song strings together a collection of verses linked by nothing more than a mood. There's such a random free association that the old Hesitating Blues verse gets a look in.
STOP PRESS I've just found this link to the Carr-Jackson lyrics https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=790.250;wap2
Carr by contrast stayed with the first verse and composed a coherent text of about three minutes' duration around the theme. This is what the record companies wanted ? because they could copyright newly composed songs and make more money. But it was also what the public wanted.- The rest is obvious, and has been said time and again: Carr and Blackwell were fine musicians; Carr's singing was hugely attractive; the laid-back style struck a perfect note for a changing Black society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wfd3F2SkAc
This song was covered by Tampa Red
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iGmHFyLdTo
And, without committing himself he reportsQuote from: KomaraIt is also said that the song was among the first blues learned by Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.
The rest of the article is more surprising, and may not be accepted by everybody. For Komara, Sitting On Top Of The World is basically the same song with a new and different set of lyrics, with longer lines and so without the pauses. I'll post his thoughts on the appropriate thread
https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10934.0