Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[banjochris]

One thing Vestapol and dropped-D have in their favor on "Let My Daddy," at least to me, is that the low V note sure sounds like an open string to me. I'd vote for dropped-D myself.

As far as a third guitar, John I think you're right, there is a third one, and it seems to me it's there, subtly, on this and on "I'm Missing That Thing." I can't really put my finger on it except there's a denseness there that doesn't seem like it comes from only two guitars being crisply picked with a lot of single-note runs.

On this tune, I think you can hear the third guitar by itself at the very end of the tune, literally about the last half-second, there are two midrange strums that have a different sound than either of the "lead" instruments, both of which have ended on a single note. I think a third instrument is more likely than a recording mishap, especially because they would have been recording on disc, not tape, so either wax would be scraped off or a new disc would be used for a second take.

Looking in B&GR there are only two guitars listed, but man is it frustrating to see 15! unissued titles from those sessions. They're probably filed right next to the Vocalion Pattons.

PS if you haven't done it already the Harney Bros. duets behind Pearl Dickson might make good puzzler material.
Chris

[Johnm]

Thanks for pointing out the impossibility of the extra guitar being the result of bleed-through from an earlier take recorded on the same stretch of tape.  I'm weak on the history of recording technology and didn't know that in 1934  magnetic tape would still not have been introduced yet.  I'm going to re-listen the track a bunch more and see if I can suss out the playing position/tuning of the third guitar.  I suppose it's not altogether impossible that Hattie Hart was playing it herself, and if that were the case, it would would go some way towards explaining why no other guitarist was listed for the session.
All best,
Johnm

[banjochris]

I'm sure there must be others, but I would say the earliest album in the blues genre to originate from tape rather than disc was probably Lead Belly's Last Sessions. I know the big labels used disc into the early '50s.

[waxwing]

But Alan Lomax was using tape for the field recording trip on which he recorded William Brown, hence the substantially longer than 3 minute recordings of Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty, as well as the dialogue in between. So that was '42, IIRC.

Wax

[Johnm]

Thanks for that information, Chris.  Who would have thought that what was essentially a field recording would be a trail-blazer in terms of recording technology? 
I re-listened to "I Lets My Daddy Do That" and am certain that the mystery third guitar part was played in Vestapol.  You can hear it plainly at the very beginning of the song.  The song enters on a V7 chord, in the ninth bar of the form, with the third guitar providing chordal accompaniment and the high guitar part playing.  The low lead part enters more or less on the tenth bar of the form.  For that first bar of the intro, you can hear the chordally accompanying guitar voicing a V7 chord very plainly on the interior four strings, ascending from the fifth string, voicing the chord, R-5-b7-R, which is exactly the way a V7 chord is voiced in Vestapol, at 0-2-1-0 on those strings.  The I6 chord that Frank noted can be heard voicing out on the Vestapol guitar part, as 5-6-R on the top three strings, located at 3-2-0, a voicing that Memphis Minnie used in her lead guitar part on Kansas Joe's "Pile Drivin' Blues".  Having the third guitar in Vestapol also explains the occasional musical traffic jam on the bottom three strings, since sometimes both the Dropped-D guitarist and the Vestapol guitarist were playing runs down there on three strings tuned to the very same pitches.  Whew, it feels good to have that a sorted out a bit more.
All best,
Johnm

   

[Stuart]

Wax: 1942 strikes me a a bit too early for the use of magnetic tape for audio recording in the U.S. A quick survey indicates that it was a post WWII technology in the U.S. Perhaps Lomax was using discs with a higher capacity than the standard 78 commercial record format.

n.b. The discs that William Savory used in the 30's--Here's a link to an article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/arts/music/17jazz.html?pagewanted=all

[jpeters609]

I believe Lomax was using 16-inch discs and often recording at 33.3 RPM to maximize space, resulting in longer takes (or sometimes more than one song per side) and, unfortunately, often less than ideal sound quality, as 33.3 didn't capture as much audio info as 78 RPM would.

[waxwing]

This 1942 memo by Lomax regarding John Work using "blanks" to record artists at the Fort Valley Festival would seem to support your info, Stuart and Jeff. Can't imagine he would refer to tape as "blanks". Funny, I always thought that quote in the quote generator about the chocolate tape spooling off the reels was about the '42 recordings. Sorry for the misinformation. Amazing, tho', that he chose to use disc space to record his conversation with Brown.

http://www.loc.gov/resource/afc1941035.afc1941035_ms013/?sp=1

Wax

[Stuart]

It was just a fact check for clarification, Wax. I wish that I could keep all of this stuff straight regarding who, what, where, when, why and how. The history the things we take for granted is interesting, to say the least. Without going too far afield, here's a link:

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/recording.technology.history/magnetic4.html

And then there's the invention of the precursor to the fax machine by Alexander Bain in 1843...

[blueshome]

Lomax used 14/16" discs for some recordings which gave more recording time. I believe they were aluminium in the 40's.
Acetate discs were used until late 40's early 50's for recording.

[Lastfirstface]

If you look on the LOC website, you can see the recording medium Lomax and other field recorders used on different individual pieces. Several 1941 recordings are listed as being "16 inch acetate glass discs." Confusingly, a lot of acetate discs for record cutters had an aluminum core, and are referred to as "lacquer (aluminum base) on the LOC. These 12'' "lacquer" discs seem to be what Lomax was using in 1937.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The first song is John Henry Barbee's "Against My Will".  Here it is:



Well, I woke up, up in a slumber, babe, then I put on my shoes and clothes
Now, I woke up in a slumber, mama, put on my shoes and clothes
I'm gon' find pretty mama walkin' down this gravel road

She won't fix me no breakfast, now, she won't even, uh, wash no clothes
Now, now, fix no breakfast, Lord, she won't even wash me no clothes
She don't want to do nothin' but walk up and down this road

I don't want, want no woman, when she believes everybody but me
Mmm, b'lieves everybody but me
Because we'll soon be so that we, sure God, can't agree

SOLO

Now, it was late, late last night, babe, well, when everything was still
Now, now, it was late last night, mama, everything was still
I began to want to turn over and it was against my will

Now, she's gone, well, she's gone, but she'll forever be on my mind
Mmmm, forever be on my mind
She was a real good-lookin' woman, but she just wouldn't be lovin' and kind

Just two questions on "Against My Will":
   * What playing position/tuning did John Henry Barbee use to play the song?  (We're speaking of the higher, lead guitar part.)
   * Where did Barbee fret the descending line that he plays at the end of each verse?

The second song is Kid Prince Moore's "Pickin' Low Cotton, pt. 2".  Here it is:



Pickin' low cotton, bendin' my back all day
Pickin' low cotton, bendin' my back all day
Then I come home, I have some half a mind to lay

Have my dinner ready, don't let my coffee be cold
Have my dinner ready, don't let my coffee be cold
Don't forget, mama, fix some my good jellyroll

SOLO

Every payday, mama, when I get my check
Every payday, mama, when I get my check
Aft' I pay your bills, I'm all nervous in dread

Mmm, Got a girl cross-town, she crocheted all the time
Got a girl cross-town, crocheted all the time
If you don't quit crochetin', mama, you sure gon' lose your mind

Mmm, went to the station, set my suitcase down
Went to the station, set my suitcase down
Blues overtaken me and the tears come rollin' down

Pickin' low cotton, eatin' out all of my shoes
Pickin' low cotton, eatin' out all of my shoes
That's the reason why I got them low-down low cotton blues

What playing position/tuning did Kid Prince Moore use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, March 11, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the tunes and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

[banjochris]

Thanks for that information, Chris.  Who would have thought that what was essentially a field recording would be a trail-blazer in terms of recording technology? 
I re-listened to "I Lets My Daddy Do That" and am certain that the mystery third guitar part was played in Vestapol.  You can hear it plainly at the very beginning of the song.  The song enters on a V7 chord, in the ninth bar of the form, with the third guitar providing chordal accompaniment and the high guitar part playing.  The low lead part enters more or less on the tenth bar of the form.  For that first bar of the intro, you can hear the chordally accompanying guitar voicing a V7 chord very plainly on the interior four strings, ascending from the fifth string, voicing the chord, R-5-b7-R, which is exactly the way a V7 chord is voiced in Vestapol, at 0-2-1-0 on those strings.  The I6 chord that Frank noted can be heard voicing out on the Vestapol guitar part, as 5-6-R on the top three strings, located at 3-2-0, a voicing that Memphis Minnie used in her lead guitar part on Kansas Joe's "Pile Drivin' Blues".  Having the third guitar in Vestapol also explains the occasional musical traffic jam on the bottom three strings, since sometimes both the Dropped-D guitarist and the Vestapol guitarist were playing runs down there on three strings tuned to the very same pitches.  Whew, it feels good to have that a sorted out a bit more.
 

Thanks for figuring that out, John. A puzzler indeed!
Chris

[eric]

Kid Prince Moore: E position, capo at 4th fret?

[David Kaatz]

Kid Moore sounds like Spanish tuning, maybe capoed one fret up.

Dave