Topic: Why (and where) we play.

[Norfolk Slim]

As threatened in the tab thread, a thread about playing out, reasons for playing at all, and alternatives.  Apologies in advance if this gets self indulgent (it probably will).

I was interested to see Karl 'Stovepipe''s comments about not wanting to bother with playing out, and arriving at Youtube as a creative outlet for his playing.  I'd never thought of youtube in that way and always assumed Karl's videos were in support of a regular gigging schedule / or an additional bit of fun.

Personally, I have an odd relationship with public playing.  I've done a reasonable amount now, and force myself along to open mics and things from time to time.   I still don't know whether I actually enjoy it, generally speaking.  I was very pleased to have the opportunity a while back to do a 45 minute slot in a pub in Southampton, courtesy of Bob Long and I'd say I did enjoy that, after the event- or at least enjoyed the satisfaction of having done it, and put in a half decent performance.

However, I usually have to push myself to do it all.  It feels like something of a pressure which I'd often rather not have to deal with.  Equally though, it seems a real waste not to.  Where else do these songs I work on and create find an audience?  And does it matter if they have an audience at all?

In a sense, perhaps it does not.  One can play for the pleasure of doing it, and for the way that singing and playing can lift your mood.  I certainly understand people who take that view.  For me though, music needs to be shared, or to end up with something tangible and I have a suspicion that some people who say they are content just playing alone for themselves, are kidding themselves a bit.

In principle, I very much like the idea of striding on stage as a solo player, delivering an hour and a half of thrilling music and soaking up the applause, but I know full well thats not how it is for the vast majority of people playing any music, let alone this sort of niche music.  Certainly its not ever going to be the case for someone like me.
I wonder whether I'd enjoy the whole process more as part of a band or duo, with the added "protection" that provides, and because it is a shared experience.  Though most of what I enjoy playing is very much solo stuff by its very nature.

I have certainly enjoyed busking on occasion, which is by its nature less pressured, but equally in some ways less rewarding as people for the most part are not directly listening anyway (though nice when someone clearly is).
I like Karl's idea of a finished product by way of Youtube.  It takes the pressure off to a large extent, and gives you something tangible as a result of your work.  There is your product, and you can gauge people's enjoyment of and reaction to it. 

The essence of why many of us play, is the desire to share the thrill we get out of a piece of music, and to try to instill the same in some others with our own efforts at it.  Equally, I think it must be the desire for a worthwhile end result- a product- from the work we put in and the satsifaction of that.  That product could either be something tangible, like a CD or youtube recording, or something intangible like a positive audience attention. 
I'm sure we all play for the pleasure of doing it and the vast majority of us would continue doing so without any outlet at all, but I imagine the factors described in the previous paragraph play a part for most of us.

I have enjoyed using the fairly modest recording kit I have acquired (two Audio Technica Condensers, a digital audio workstation and a copy of Cubase).  I can get to a "product" which I am satisfied with (and sometimes sounds a good deal better to me than I think it does when I'm playing it).  That product in itself brings some satisfaction, but I still like the idea of a further outlet.  It seems odd to think about putting 15 recordings on a CD with all that entails, whilst not actually playing out to any great extent- but I'm tempted to try it.  I have enough (as yet unpublished) recordings and perhaps that is a similar mindset and outlet to the youtube one.  . .   Or perhaps its just egotistical! 

If I have worked on getting something recorded, which I hope is half decent and which I may or may not be able to produce consistently well live, I feel a need to *do* something with it.  But generally speaking, I don't play live very much and when I do, its probably only a small prportion of listeners who are remotely interested.  So the better and more satisfying outlet is perhaps to get something out there in recorded form.  Certainly it feels wasteful to work on or create something, and for it never really to be heard anywhere. Of course, overarching all these thoughts and considerations is the inevitable self doubt which most of us presumably feel to a greater or lesser extent about exposing ourselves byputting something as personal as music "out there".

I can certainly see the appeal in getting together with like minded folks and playing together per Rivers' comments in the Tab thread.  Of course, that can be a song-sharing kind of thing, or actively playing songs together- though the latter seems less relevant to me personally, given the heavy preponderance of overtly solo material I favour.  It is one of the reasons I look forward so much to the Weenie weekend here in the UK and actively focus on getting some fun interesting material together for it.  I can think of a number of tunes I've done there, and enjoyed playing, which I have never played publically anywhere else- and possibly never will.

Perhaps my problem remains the one I self-diagnosed years ago.  I simply need to do more of it all, and it becomes more fun and easier as you do so. 

I'd be interested in people's thoughts, and their own reasons / mindset for playing out, or not.  Or indeed for playing at all, or not.

This ended up as something of a stream of consciousness.  I refer the reader to the pre-emptive apology for self indulgence in the first paragraph.

[NotRevGDavis]

From "Getting off of TAB"

Hi all,
One thing that occurs to me, too, is that talk of songs being performance-ready doesn't really take into account all of the folks out there who may have no intention of ever performing this music for an audience, but who play rather for their own enjoyment or for that of their family and friends.  There have been a lot of wonderful "back porch pickers" in this style who never ventured into performing in public to any extent at all. 

So to acknowledge peoples' different wants and needs as to what place they want music-making to have in their own lives, it might make more sense to think of a goal in music-making as being able to play something to your own satisfaction, to the point where you enjoy the sound and the making of the music and feel like you've done a creditable job with the song.  Just engaging with the process of really working on a piece of music can provide a tremendous amount of pleasure and satisfaction, even if the experience is altogether private.

All best,
Johnm

Have those of you like Rivers who doesn't enjoy playing out, ever played in a concert situation with an audience there to hear this kind of music specifically?

Well theoretically, you would think so playing at blues society gigs. 'Blues' though means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. What I call blues may not be blues, to many people. The whole 'blues rock is blues' brainwashing is what I'm talking about.

But actually I realized a long time ago I hate the whole playing out thing in any format or genre and so simply don't bother. It's not why I play music and I'll leave that to people who like it or want to do it as a career choice. I could stay at home and beat myself with a rubber hose for much less energy expended and a similar amount of enjoyment.

My first thought getting on stage in front of a bunch of strangers with dodgy live sound is 'WTF am I doing here, I don't need this'. My second thought is to just get on with it and see what happens. Sometimes it's OK, other times it's a waste of time and energy. The great thing about being a pessimist is if it turns out well you're pleasantly surprised, and if it doesn't it proves you were right all along. Either way, I can live without it.

On the other hand I love to sit down and play with like minded people and anyone who cares to listen and enjoy it. Preferably spontaneously.

Sorry if that sounds cynical but I'm just being true to myself. Just because you can play an instrument to a fairly high degree simply does not require that you have to play out unless you want to. I simply don't want to. That doesn't make me less or more of a musician, and I think people obsess too much about this aspect.

Anyway, sorry to contribute to a big swerve off topic, let's get back to kicking TAB dependency.

Thanks John and Rivers- I'm that guy the one who plays music just to play music. I have enough things to do and stress to deal with on a day to day basis so playing guitar for me is a relaxation. No commitment to anyone else, no worries.
My biggest audience is three dogs and my wife listening to me play slide while she is taking a bath.

[CanadianStringPicker]

I play simply because I love the country blues, I love the sound of it, I love the style, I love the simplicity, rawness and authenticity of it.

I connect with it more than any other music I've heard yet. As soon as I heard it, I told myself I need to learn how to play this stuff, so that's what I do lol

I play for myself. I'm working on my singing and playing now in hopes to one day be able to play it for audiences at open mike nights etc simply to be able to expose people to a style of music that is fading into forgotten obscurity. I find it tragic that so few people even know this genre/era of music exists and I like to think I can further awareness of it in that aspect.

But primarily it's my love of the music, the musicians, the history and playing it for my own enjoyment 

[harriet]

Well I play for myself but I don't think that necessarily excludes youtube or soundcloud posting/sharing or even going out.

Youtube/soundcloud I am planning on and have dedicated an area in my coop, and have equipment tested to do so. The last time I went into the record stores I got applause in 2 separate stores from other customers  - in one the fellow was trying a Martin and  I was drowning him out so I went to stop and he said - no please continue. I was flattered by the interest and have a nice memory.! I guess thats some indication the music is at least presentable as well. I need to set some goals to develop arrangements of about 2 minutes once and for all - that's the hold up with that for me.

Going out and playing around people in NYC would be a logistic nightmare for me - dragging a guitar around up and down stairs on the subway for 2 hours - so thats out, same for open mic nights. I had thought about busking but the transportation issues, age and personal safety, I'm about 5ft tall  - were factors in that decision.

[sofingraw]

I like this topic a lot.

First off, Norfolk Slim - I agree 100% with your lengthy post. I think that most (not all) of us want to share how this music makes us feel with others.

I mostly play alone, in the house, to nobody but my wife, who takes a modest level of interest in what I'm doing.

I have played open mics, and have enjoyed some of the experiences a good deal, and others not as much.
Technical issues, audience indifference, and my own lack of skill in playing and singing being the detractors.
Positive audience reaction, playing music that I think is important, and largely forgotten in (PUBLIC!) And words of encouragement from fellow musicians being the positives.

Overall, I have become 'too busy' for open mics recently.

Or have I? Maybe I'm making excuses. I have taken up golf, which is VERY addictive! Who knows?

I don't still hold the desire to get out there as much as I did before trying it.
But it's not gone forever, or completely. I want to play out again. And I believe I will.
I really do want to hone my chops some more, and especially my voice.

And I do want to share and connect with people via this great music that I love.

[Rivers]

Of course the big hole in my down home folksy philosophy of spontaneously hooking up with other players in the style is they're as rare as hens' teeth. Unless you're at Port Townsend or similar country blues rehab facility for a week where all the hens have teeth you just don't meet such disreputable types with interesting guitars at a potluck jam out in the hill country.

I've been in Texas since 2005 and it's really only happened a few times, which I regard as the exceptions that prove the rule. The best session was at a party (we actually crashed it, you're never too old to crash parties apparently) with a disreputable character who lived in Knoxville and was leaving the next day. We never hooked up again but it was fantastically good fun. Having said that I don't go out of my way to maximize such opportunities either, being too lazy and reasonably well paid in my day job.

I would never for a moment consider conducting a crazed evangelistic campaign fighting the poor judgement of the vast majority of the population. That would be ludicrous and arrogant. People certainly regard me as arrogant, but probably not ludicrous, since it's pretty obvious I can play and equally obvious I don't give a shit about becoming the next big thing.

My opinion is if you try too hard to achieve recognition in this kind of music against your better judgement you will never achieve it. My suggestion is relax and enjoy it for its own sake first and foremost. 

[harvey]

I thought I would respond to this thread as I don?t play out, at all, maybe the odd occasion, but I will also link it to the tab thread as you have done.

Plain and simple, time !

I have worked out songs before and it takes me an age to do properly... and with 3 kids and a hectic job, and then the house, garden, missus to attend to as well I just don?t have the time.

I think the same about performing, although it bothers me less. I just don?t get the time to work on tunes to performance standard. I can play a lot of stuff partially and I like working on the rest but nothing that I want to subject others to.

I would much rather be in the audience and work on my own stuff in my own time (when I get it) in my own home or occasionally for family and friends, I enjoy that much more.

Agree with Rivers getting together at Blues Week or Weenie weekends does me fine. Although I would like to collaborate more with local musicians ?. But here we go again,  time

I am counting down the days to the kids fleeing the nest and me retiring about 20 years to go.

[nobocaster]

  I have always had the desire to share the music I play.  Not every situation is fun, but there's no doubt that I enjoy it.  There is some sort of internal creative craving being satisfied.  Of course it's the best when people are dancing or really engaged as an audience, but just playing instrumentals in the corner of a chatty room while people are eating breakfast on a weekday morning is somehow deeply satisfying to me.  I play shows regularly with a few bands these days.  Before that, I often went to open mics or would go out busking.  I'm sure if I didn't have any shows to play, I would still be going to open mics, just to be playing out and socializing.  If there were no open mics nearby, I'd probably start making more Youtube videos. 

  To those who have a desire to play out and share more...  I encourage you!!  Get on out there!  I think open mics are great.. partly because a lot of people there are just as nervous, and unpolished as you might be.  Don't have too high of standards for "open mic performance ready".  Generally I've found open mics to be supportive environments.  In a way, it seems easier to go play an open mic, than to post a video.  You play your couple songs at the mic, and then you're done, maybe it was great, maybe do it better next time, but it's over.  When you post a video, you're putting out one performance of a song out there.. and there it stays.

  Perhaps it is self-indulgent or egotistical when we share our music, whether by recording or live performance.  Well heck..  then let's get self indulgent in the name of creative expression! 

[Pan]

Hi all

As someone who plays out, here are some of my thoughts of the (perhaps selfish) benefits of doing it:

Personally, I love the interaction with an audience, when it works. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not, especially if people are indifferent to what you do. But I love to see the people enjoying the music, when they do.

I could never keep up with my repertoire of songs, if I didn't play out. It's simply too much music to practice on a daily basis. Between gigs I mostly try to focus on new songs, or solving problems with some of the old ones. Playing out, makes me go through the repertoire, every once and in a while, and see what needs to be improved, changed, or even ditched. Keeping up with a large repertoire is rewarding also in the sense, that when returning to a song you haven't played in a while, on a daily basis, you might find a fresh angle to it as well.

I also think I need to play a song or an arrangement out live, a couple of times, even, before I can really decide, whether or not it really suits me. I admire those of you, who come up with great videos just fresh off the woodshed. I almost never am happy with my initial home recording efforts, and feel that I need to work a song before an audience, before I can really make it work. I don't like stress any more than the next guy, but maybe playing in front of an audience forces me to focus on the music a little deeper?

Having said all that, playing out probably isn't for everybody. I don't always enjoy it myself, and I've started to prune some of the less rewarding gigs that are out there. Anyway, there are many ways to enjoy the music, and mine is just one. The main thing is to enjoy it, whatever you do!

For someone who is hesitant in starting to play out, I would recommend finding a friendly environment to try busking. It's much less stressfull than playing a "real" gig, and you can have some real fun doing it.
Just my 2 cents

Pan

[Mr.OMuck]

Here's an idea...If you're enjoying it...You're doing it wrong 


C'mon folks! D'ya really think the old guys ENJOYED having to play on street corners for nickels & dimes? Yeah they probably sometimes enjoyed playing picnics, parties, various joints..but they were doing it because it's WORK! The WORK of a musician involves performance, and the reason it does is because nothing else can clarify your motivations, your, interest, your degree of dedication, your direction, like performing!
Its not all about "feeling good" or Enjoyment! You want to feel good get a massage fer Chrissakes!


Oh I don't think I'll work on the Sistine Ceiling today your Holiness..I don't ENJOY it!


Yes its sometimes terrifying and downright unpleasant. Maybe its that far more often than it is enjoyable. So what?


For all of you reluctant dragons out there I urge you strongly to give it a go JUST FOR THE EXPERIENCE, just to test the truth of your involvement! You don't have anything to prove? Really? Prove it! Ha ha!
No but really even when its horrible its a great experience and one that you shouldn't miss.


It was one thing for Glenn Gould, after a decade or more of touring to say he'd never perform live again, only produce recordings and film. He'd done it, he'd done it all..he'd STUNNED the most demanding, snarky, mean spirited audience there is, the classical music audience (for proof of this read the comments under any classical performance on youtube) but during all those years of practice he was doing it with the understanding that the ultimate test of his artistry would be in performance, not continuing to improve in isolation!

[sustaireblues]

Way to go Mr. OMuck!
Indeed the key to growth, in any area, is getting out of your comfort zone.
A buddy and I have been playing area nursing homes of late. Gets us out there in front of an audience and we brighten a few peoples day.
My buddy likes western swing and old country music, I had the country blues, so it makes for a nice mix.

[Mr.OMuck]

Good for you!

[Rivers]

Whatever turns you on Phil. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

[uncle bud]

Good points, Mr. O'Muck. It's easy for hobbyists or part-time musicians to have these attitudes (and valid enough to have them as well, IMO). But one has to put up with all sorts of stuff in earning one's livelihood, whatever the field. I sometimes wonder how pit musicians do it, having to play shit they can't stand night after night. Then I remember things I have to deal with.

As for getting out there, I've done it with other kinds of music long ago, but performing country blues is another story. I don't feel tremendously compelled to play out, but I get curious. Comes in waves. Some folks are naturals, too, some of whom have posted here and who are damn good at it. Others have to push themselves a lot more.

[Mr.OMuck]

If we mean to sustain or create a stable audience for this music it seems to me people need to hear good examples out in the world and the more the merrier. If we wish there were a more responsive audience and nicer places to play we have to make that possible on our end by being out there.
A good question is how did it happen the first time around? That is, during the early to mid sixties?
It seems to me that it was the confluence of several factors, chiefly the rediscovery and willingness to tour of the rediscovered, the huge numbers of teenagers who having learned either rock or folk guitar were looking for a more sophisticated and interesting direction for their playing, and a pre existing circuit of Folk music clubs with an audience generally ready to embrace this music.
Well it appears we are now in the position of being the"rediscoveries" or the undiscovered or whatever, but the people who've been playing this stuff long enough to have had it cohere into something. Therefore ...OUT THERE!
Or we could leave it all up to Toby Walker