Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[mr mando]

Q: What playing position/tuning did Hopkins use to play "Thunder In Germany"?
A: A Position Standard tuning. The signature lick has a bVII to VIII not move that's mor comfortably in Standard than in spanish, and there's two places towards the end where you hear the typical Sound of a full E7 V chord, very different Sound than the five chord in open Tunings.

Q: Where did he play his signature lick, :06-:07 and throughout the rendition?  Place the lick in the meter and place it relative to the pulse.
A: Beat 1: open A string; Beat 2: open G string; Beat 2+: G string 2nd fret; Beat 3: A string 3rd fret Beat 4: open G string; Beat 4+: G string 2nd fret; Beats 1 and 3 I think are slightly before the beat, while beats 2 and 4 are a little behind the beats.

Q: Where does he fret and play what he plays under the first line of each verse?
A: fifth frets on the G and high e strings on beats 2 and 4

Q: Where is he fretting the portion of his solo that falls 3:50--3:57?
A: rocking between 2nd and 4th frets on the D string against 2nd fret G string, then 4th fret G string

Q: Where is he fretting what he plays from 5:09--5:15?
A: Similar to the previous answer, but then he bends the g string 4th fret up a whole tone, and builds a lick out of the notes used in the previous answer.

[Pan]

* What playing position/tuning did Hopkins use to play "Thunder In Germany"?

I?m thinking of A-position, standard tuning. Most of the licks seem to sit nicely in this position, and I think I?m hearing the long A chord form played for the I chord. At around 5:34 I think I?m hearing (the only time throughout the whole rendition) a V chord played with an open position E7 chord.

* Where did he play his signature lick, :06-:07 and throughout the rendition?  Place the lick in the meter and place it relative to the pulse.

For beat one, a quarter note open 5th string; for beat two, two eighth notes, and open 3rd string, and an open 5th string again; for beat three a quarter note with the 5th string 3rd fret with a slight bend; and for the fourth beat two eighth notes, the open 3rd string, followed with the 3rd string 2nd fret. This is a simple, but very effective and funky riff.

* Where does he fret and play what he plays under the first line of each verse?

I?m hearing the open 5th string, followed by a double-stop with the 3rd and the 1st string played at the 5th fret, the 3rd string is bent up little.

* Where is he fretting the portion of his solo that falls 3:50--3:57?

I hear an open A chord X-0-2-2-(2)-X, followed by the 4th string 4th fret , then the 3rd string 2nd fret, then a double stop with the 4th string and 3rd string both at the 2nd fret, then the 3rd string 4th fret, followed by the 3rd string 2nd fret.

* Where is he fretting what he plays from 5:09--5:15?

I?m suggesting the open 5th string; then the 3rd string 5th fret bent up roughly a half-step; then the 3rd string 2nd fret; followed by the 4th string  4th fret; then the 3rd string 2nd fret again.
This is followed by the open 5th string again; then the 3rd string bent up a half-step again, but this time from the 4th fret, then the same string and fret bend released, then the 3rd string 2nd fret, followed by the 3rd string 4th fret; the 3rd string 2nd fret, the 4th string 4th fret; and the 3rd string 2nd fret again.

Cheers

Pan

[dj]

Could it be, "Like a soldier laid me on some battlefield"

That's it, John.  Good ears.

[jpeters609]

The song is "Thunder in Germany", as performed by Joel Hopkins.  I know nothing about Hopkins or the circumstances in which the song was recorded, but I know Country Blues tracks 8:13 long are quite rare.

John,
Joel Hopkins is actually Lightnin' Hopkins' older brother (second oldest, I believe). This is what AllMusic has to say:

b. 3 January 1904, Centreville, Texas, USA, d. 15 February 1975, Galveston, Texas, USA. An elder brother of Lightnin? Hopkins, guitarist Joel learned his trade from Blind Lemon Jefferson when they travelled together during the 20s. Joel Hopkins spent most of his life working outside of music, but in 1947 he accompanied his brother Lightin? on his famous Gold Star recording of ?Short Haired Woman?. He resurfaced in 1959 to record a handful of archaic Texas blues for historian and folklorist Mack McCormick. The latter part of his life was spent in ill health, and he died from a heart attack in 1975.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks to mister mando and Pan for their responses on the Joel Hopkins puzzler.  I want to wait a while before responding on that and give more folks a chance to post their answers, too.

I want to offer particular thanks to Waxwing and dj for their help with the Big Boy "Blues" transcription.  I'd gotten pretty close, but on those last few bits I was really stuck.  I'm excited to have the transcription now and be able to post it in Weeniepedia and enter Big Boy as an artist there, as well.  Thanks, guys!

Thanks as well to Jeff for the information on Joel Hopkins.  It's cool to hear something from one of Lightnin's older brothers.  From what you posted, Jeff, it seems very likely that "Thunder in Germany" was one of the tracks that Mack McCormick recorded in 1959, for that would make the length plausible--no commercial company at the time would have allowed an 8 minute take.  It's nice to have the context of the song enriched.  Youtube is a wonderful resource for hearing the music, but very few entries there have anything like adequate documentation and background information.  Thanks, Jeff.

All best,
Johnm

[ScottN]

Hi John,

Re: the Big Boy lyrics -

You ever been down know 'bout how I feel
Like a soldier maybe on some battlefield.

"About" is approximating the feeling and "maybe" is a close example

Thanks,
           Scott

[jpeters609]

Just so happens Stefan has a discography for Joel Hopkins:

http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm

Looks like this song was indeed one of the Mack McCormick recordings from 1959.

[Bunker Hill]

Just so happens Stefan has a discography for Joel Hopkins:

http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm

Looks like this song was indeed one of the Mack McCormick recordings from 1959.

As the link provided to another forum appears to be broken, here's my rather cringe making review of the LP from 25 years ago.

JOEL & LIGHTNIN' HOPKINS 1959
Collector's Issue C-5530
JH: Good Times Here, Better Down The Road/Match Box Blues/Accused Me Of Forgin', Can't Even Write My Name/l Ain't Gonna Roll For The Big Hat Man No More/ Thunder In Germany, Red Cross On My Own
LH: Long Way From Texas/Whiskey, Whiskey/Getting Out Of The Bushes Tap Dance/Suicide Blues/Look Out Settagast, Here Me And My Partner Come

Yet again it's taken an anonymous (and dubious?) source to bring back to catalogue a record of major documentary importance. This album (now with an additional track) originally appeared on Tony Standish's Heritage label and culled from Mack McCormick's attempts to document the surviving Texas blues traditions of the Fifties/Sixties. The star of the album is without doubt Lightnin?s elder brother Joel. Born 1904, a true throwback, Joel Hopkins' archaic vocal and rudimentary guitar playing were, in 1959, a far more logical continuation of the Texas tradition than that of younger brother Lightnin'. The extended vocal lines of Texas Alexander, the playing of JT "Funny Paper" Smith, even nuances of Ramblin' Thomas and Little Hat Jones can all be detected, but never more so than in the hypnotic, eight minute improvisation, "Thunder In Germany". Such was its impact on me the song got three successive plays. Fans of Lightnin' will probably find Joel in comparison earthy, by contrast stark and, musically, somewhat hard going.   

Lightnin's own contribution emanate from the same source and will for some be far easier listening. I well recall how primitive a practitioner I first thought him to be when introduced to his music in 1962, but back-to-back with Joel he sounds positively ordered. Given Hopkins's formative career as a juke box artist the temptation to class these post jukebox days as "Hopkins for the folklorists" is quite tempting, but to his credit Lightnin' turns in several committed reworkings, a charming rendition of "Creole Belles" (as "Getting Out Of The Bushes Tap Dance") and "Suicide Blues" has to be one of the most remarkable insights into the contemplation and effects of suicide that's ever been committed to tape. This, too, I played repeatedly just to convince myself of what I was hearing. Whilst there may be a few like minded souls who will purchase this record to expand their understanding of Texas blues most, I suspect, will ignore this album as not warranting the expense. What this reissue will definitely provoke in some of us is a lament for the stillborn Oliver/McCormick Texas book. If publication of the work has proved impossible how about a series of features for "Blues & Rhythm" based on the research? Paul? Mack? Anybody? 
Alan Balfour (Blues & Rhythm 53 July 1990)

LATER: Sorry I intended to include the following which was originally sent to accompany the B&R review but not used. From Jazz Journal, April 1960, p. 37

[Johnm]

Thanks for re-printing your review of the disc that had Joel Hopkins' titles on it, Alan.  It's interesting that the McCormick/Oliver Texas Blues book's non-release was already being mourned 25 years ago!
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Are there any other takers for the Joel Hopkins puzzler, "Thunder in Germany"?  Come one, come all, and answer only as many of the questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm

[blueshome]

FWIW the Big Boy "battlefield" line is in Tampa Red's Western Bound Blues

[ScottN]

Thanks Phil - I wish the lines matched better:

If you ever been down I know you know just how I feel
If you ever been down you know just how I feel
Why I feel just like a dyin soldier across the battlefield

Thanks,
           Scott

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It doesn't appear that their will be more responses on the "Thunder in Germany" puzzler, Joel Hopkins' recording, so I'll post the answers to the questions now.  Here they are.
   * Joel Hopkins did play the song out of A position in standard tuning as both mister mando and Pan had it.
   * His signature lick is just as Pan had it:
      Beat 1: Open 5th string
      Beat 2 + : Open 3rd string going to the open 5th string
      Beat 3:  Bent 3rd fret of the 5th string
      Beat 4 +:  Open 3rd string going to the 2nd fret of the 3rd string
   * Behind the first vocal phrase in each of his verses, he hits the open 5th string on beats one and three and pinches the bent 5th fret of the 3rd string along with 5th fret of the 1st string on beats 2 and 4
   * In the passage from 3:50--3:57, Joel Hopkins is, in the general sense moving around what he hits with his thumb in the right hand falling on the beat and with his index finger picking the 3rd string on the +s of the beats.  He is holding down an A partial barre with his index finger at the second fret across to the fourth string.  In the first measure, his thumb strikes the open 5th string on beat one, the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, the second fret of the fourth string on beat three and the fourth fret of the third string on beat four.  In that same measure, his index finger picks the second fret of the third string on the +s of beats one, two and four.  In the second measure of this passage, his thumb brushes the fourth and third strings at the second fret on beat one, strikes the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, brushes the fourth, third and second strings at the second fret on beat three, and strikes the fourth fret of the third string on beat four.  In the second measure, the index finger picks the second fret of the third string on the + of each beat.  In the third measure, his thumb brushes the second fret of the fourth, third and second strings on beat one, gets the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, brushes the second fret of the fourth, third and second strings on beat three and hits the fourth fret of the third string on beat four, with the index finger picking the second fret of the third string on the + of each beat. 
Thinking about how he uses his left hand in this passage, he is striking only barred notes with his thumb on beats one and three of each measure, and is hitting either the fourth fret of the fourth or third strings with his thumb on beats two and four. 
   * In the passage from 5:09--5:15, he is working out the partially barred position at the second fret again.  I think he is doing all of his bends at the fourth fret of the third string--he has an unwound string there and can bend it extravagantly.  In the first measure he hits the open fifth string on beat one, on beat two he hits the fourth fret of the third string with a very big bend, which he ties into beat three.  On the + of beat three, he goes to the barred note at the second fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string back up to the second fret of the third string.  In the second measure, on 1+ he goes from the open fifth string to a bend of the third string at the fourth fret.  On 2+ he does a pull-off from the fourth to the second fret of the third string and resolves down to the fourth fret of the fourth string.  On 3+ he goes from the fourth fret of the third string to the second fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string back up to the second fret of the third string.  He continues on in this vein with minor variations for two more measures.
One thing that struck me in listening to this passage was the extent to which he was working very much the same territory in the left hand, even to the extent of using the very same bends as did Garfield Akers in "Dough Roller Blues".  I'm not suggesting that Joel Hopkins copied Garfield Akers' recording, and in fact think it is very unlikely that Joel Hopkins ever heard Akers' recordings or even heard of Akers.  I think it is much more likely simply a case of the same possibility in the language of the blues in A position in standard tuning occurring to, and being utilized by two very different players from different places and different times.
I very much like Joel Hopkins' singing and playing on "Thunder in Germany".  He doesn't have the other-worldly vocal instrument and charisma that his brother Lightnin' had, but he did just fine on his own--he sounds great.  I believe, too, that the title, "Thunder in Germany" is a Mondegreen, or phonetic approximation of what Joel Hopkins sang, which is altogether different.  The phrase "Thunder in Germany" is never sung in the song.
Thanks to mister mando and Pan for their participation.  I think you guys both had a very good idea of where everything was happening on the guitar.  I'll try to find another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm   

[Bunker Hill]

About a decade ago it was suggested that Hopkins sang "Soldiers dyin' in Germany, Red Cross on my arm. Can't recall the source!

[Johnm]

Thanks, Phil and Scott, for the additional thoughts on that verse in Big Boy's "Blues".  It's interesting to know a different source for the verse, or at least one very much like verse one Big Boy sang.  I don't think the "maybe" in the last line works, Scott.  It's seems too modern or something, as well as diffident in a way that doesn't seem plausible.  It just would seem kind of weird to use a simile and then hedge your bets by saying "Well, it's sort of like that, maybe."
Thanks also, Alan, for the thought on the first verse of "Thunder in Germany".  I've transcribed it the way I hear it, at the original post of the song at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89913#msg89913 .
All best,
Johnm