Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[mr mando]

I've been listenening again and trying everybody's solution. Pan's mention of the high F# note in the second D chorus is spot on IMHO, and davek's identification of the B7#5 (x-2-1-2-0-3) also sounds closer than my initial solution. When listeneing to the second D chorus, I realized that there doesn't seem to be no Cwhatever chord chord at all.
So actually, the chords from :55 to :59 would be (after the D) F#m7b5 (x-3-2-2-5-2), then B7#5 (x-2-1-2-0-3), then B7 (x-2-1-2-0-2).

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks for your participation.  Johnny St. Cyr's "Guitar Blues" really is a stellar piece and performance, isn't it?  Sorry to be slow responding, but I was out of town.  Here are the answers to the questions that were posed.
   * He did play the piece out of A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * The three chords Johnny St. Cyr played in the passage from :11--:14 are very much as mister mando had them in the first response:  A: X-0-2-2-2-X, resolving to C#7/G: 4-X-3-4-2-X, resolving to F#9: 2-X-2-3-2-4.  Johnny St. Cyr doesn't really hit the fourth string in the F#9 until he brushes the top four strings on the fourth beat of the measure, and you can hear the bVII note of the chord on the fourth string, second fret, at that point.  Had he fretted the fourth fret of the fourth string, he would have had an F#add9 rather than an F#9, and it wouldn't have wanted to function like a V7 chord, continuing to push into the B9 chord that follows it.
   * Johnny St. Cyr modulates to D at the :45 mark, just as you all had it.
   * In the passage from :55-:59, one of the very prettiest in the tune, I think, Johnny St. Cyr goes from a D chord voiced on the top four strings 0-2-3-2, and passes through what at this time sounds like a C chord, with an open voicing, X-3-X-X-5-X, resolving to a B7#5, voiced X-2-X-2-4-3.  One of the nifty things about this passage is that Johnny St. Cyr does a very pianistic device of walking down in harmonized tenths (an octave and a third) as pianists of his era often did, with the bass walking down from the D string to the C note on the A string resolving to the B note on the A string, while at the same time the treble walks down from the F# on the first string to the E note on the B string to the D# on the B string in the B7#5 chord. 
Although the middle of the three chords sound like a C chord voiced root-3rd the first time he plays through the passage, the second time he gets there, he plays a much more fleshed-out voicing, an F#m7b5 chord, as Pan analyzed it, and I think F#m7b5 gets closer to the function of the middle chord in the walk-down than does a C major chord in any event.  That second time he plays the walk-down, he voices the middle chord, the F#m7b5, X-3-x-2-5-2, so that on the strings that are fretted, it is voiced b5-b3-b7-Root.  Voicing the F#m7b5 that way makes for a significantly niftier walk-down, with tighter and closer voice leading.  The outer voices still walk down in tenths, but that second fret of the third string holds its place through all three chords, binding them together beautifully, as the 5 of the D chord, the b3 of the F#m7b5 and the b7 of B7#5. 
Since mister mando mentioned it, looking at Johnny St. Cyr's turn-around in the next-to-last bar of his first time through the form, he goes from an open A string on the downbeat of that bar to another walk-down in tenths between his outer voices: F#7/C#: X-4-X-3-5-X, to Cdim7: X-3-X-2-4-X, to
E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-X, into the next bar to A: X-0-X-2-2-X to Bbdim7: X-1-X-0-2-X, to E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-X.  One of the really beautiful and elegant things about this turn-around is that the F#7/C#, the Cdim7 and the E7/B are all fingered exactly the same way, and the move can be achieved simply by moving the position downward from the F#7/C# where it starts, a fret at a time.  This seem to me to be a really happy meeting place of concept, sound and the way the hand is configured--wow!
One other thing that I think is worth mentioning about Johnny St. Cyr's approach in arranging "Guitar Blues" is his fondness for voicing chords in second inversion, i.e., with the 5th of the chord in the bass.  The arrangement abounds with places where he does this, and he usually does it to get linear motion in the bass, rather than having the blocky bass resolutions of 4ths and 5ths you would normally expect to have in a song that relies heavily on circle-of-fifths progressions.  Here are just a couple of the second inversion voicings he uses in verse three, the first time he plays through the form in D:
   * In the ninth bar, he voices an E9/B: X-2-X-1-3-2, resolving to E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-0
   * Going into the tenth bar he voices an A9/E: X-7-X-6-8-7, resolving to A7/E: X-7-X-6-8-5
   * Halfway through the tenth bar, he voices an E9/B: 7-X-6-7-7-X
This is a piece that has enough interesting ideas and sounds to justify doing a transcription of it from beginning to end (much like Joe Harris' "Baton Rouge Rag" or Reese Crenshaw's "Trouble"), and I encourage any of you who are so inclined to take it on.  I think we can get in the habit of thinking that Blind Blake, for instance, sort of had the last word in terms of speaking in a raggy language on the guitar, but Johnny St. Cyr goes a lot of places in this tune that Blake never dreamed about.

Thanks for your participation.  I think everybody was really in the ballpark in terms of hearing and to the extent there were differences, they tended to be quite subtle.  I will post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
 

[mr mando]

johnm, thanks for the insight into the details. I think it's great that with everybody's input, we were really close as a collective.
For the B7#5, I think there's a typo in your post. Wouldn't it be voiced X-2-X-2-4-3?

[Johnm]

Yes, you're right about the typo, mister mando.  Thanks for the catch!
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you, and it involves two Texas musicians.  The first is Pete Harris, doing "Square Dance Calls and Little Liza Jane".  Here is the recording:



One question only for this song:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pete Harris use to play the piece?

The second song is by Wallace Chains, whom we've encountered twice before in this thread.  The song is his version of "Ella Speed", and here it is:



Come al you girls, take heed, remember Ella Speed
You remember the poor girl, Ella speed
Some day you might be out, only having fun
Some man will kill, the deed that Martin done

Remember the day that poor Ella died
The women, everybody cried
Hung their heads, and these the words they said,
"Poor Ella's gone, and the poor girl's dead."

I was in Savannah upon a Christmas Eve night
Poor Ella, she was drinkin', she's out of sight
And the trains all come running, under the Union shed
Started the bells to tone when they heard poor Ella was dead

Poor Ella's people, they lived 'way out West
They didn't come south 'til they heard poor Ella's death
Some give nickels and some give dimes
I would give a quarter but she wasn't no friend of mine

SPOKEN:  That's all

The questions for "Ella Speed" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
   * What chord progression did he use to accompany the song?

Please use only your ears and instrument to figure out the answers to the questions, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, November 12.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

Edited 11/16 to pick up correction from Prof. Scratchy

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any takers for the Pete Harris and Wallace Chains puzzlers?  Come one, come all, and answer as few or as many questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm

[Pan]

I believe Roi is right about Spanish on the Pete Harris tune.

Cheers

Pan

[mr mando]

I agree with Pan and roig, just wanted to add that Liza Jane and Ella Speed both sound at Bb, so the first one is copoed up 3 frets and the second one tuned down a whole step.

[harvey]

Not had time to look at this thread for a few months, but have this week and really enjoyed going through some of the earlier posts, thank you John 

Spanish for the first version.

I think the second version is C as the others have said,  but I cant tell the progression it has some strange sounding chords in there to me.. however if in C I have the standard  A D7 G/G7 C

[frailer24]

I am going to go with Roig on this one. I believe, however that the last 2 lines of Ella Speed are played thusly: A, A7, Dm, F#aug, G, C.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks for your responses.  As for the answers to the questions that were posed, Roi had everything right in his post--well done, Roi! 
   * The Pete Harris cut was played in Spanish.  His approach in the right hand reminds me a bit of Henry Thomas, though I don't think Henry Thomas ever recorded thumb lead to the extent that Pete Harris employs it here.  Thumb lead works so well in Spanish and other open tunings (especially open Bb), and the way that Pete Harris did it sounds like it might have come right out of banjo playing.
   * Wallace Chains' version of "Ella Speed" is a particularly nice one, and everything I've heard by him has been really fine.  It's nice to hear that D minor chord in there instead of the D7 one most often encounters in a raggy circle-of-fifths progression like this.  Probably the most striking place in the song's 16-bar progression is the passage in the 11th and 12th bars where Chains goes from D minor to the Ab7 chord.  What makes those chords work as well as they do, and resolve so smoothly into the C chord that follows them is his bass line.  He plays the D minor with the open D string in the bass, X-X-0-2-3-1, resolves to Ab7/Eb, X-X-1-1-1-2, and then resolves upward 1/2 step into C/E, X-X-2-0-1-0. 

The walk-up Wallace Chains does there is like a much more commonly encountered one in raggy tunes, but done in it's relative minor.  The more common walk-up is IV to #IVdim7 to I/V; Chains' walk-up goes from II to #II to I/III in its bass line.  Expressing both walk-ups in the key in which he played "Ella Speed", the more common walk-up would be F-F#dim7-C/G, and Chains' walk-up was Dm-Ab7-C/E.  It should be noted that in the more common walk-up, an Ab7 could similarly be used in substitution for the F#dim7 chord--indeed it was the way Blind Blake most often did the move, voicing the Ab7 chord with its b7 in the bass, Ab/Gb, 2-X-1-1-1-X.  It's neat to see how the raggy progression can comfortably accommodate such a variety of substitutions and still retain its most essential elements and sound.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got another two-song puzzler for those who are interested.  The first song is "Country Girl Blues", performed by George Boldwin.  I know nothing about Boldwin, but his sound is unusual.  The song has no verses, per se, just single lines with intervening instrumental fills.



Tell me, baby, where'd you, where did you stay last night?

Stay out in the country, just a few miles out from town

I-uh sent for you last night, here you come, this mornin' soon

Say, tell me, where did you get your sugar from?

I got my, been travelin' Highway 61 

The questions on "Country Girl Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did George Boldwin use to play the song?
   * What is unusual about the scale George Boldwin uses to sing the melody of the song?

The second performance is Bill Tatnall's performance of "Fandango".  Here it is:



The questions on "Fandango" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Tatnall use to play the tune?
   * What chord does he play at :30--:31, and where is it fretted?
   * What other name for a Country Blues guitar instrumental might more aptly have been used for "Fandango"?

Please use only your ears and instruments in arriving at your answers to the questions, and please wait until Saturday morning, November 15 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm   

[Pan]

Thanks again for the analysis, John.

FWIW, Ella Speed was discussed in this thread a few years ago. I managed to get the chords wrong then already, so I passed on it this time.

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=3584.msg84332#msg84332

Cheers

Pan

[mr mando]

"Country Girl Blues"
Q: What playing position/tuning did George Boldwin use to play the song?
A: G position / standard tuning. I hear lots of open strings, the characteristic sixth interval on top and a tonic bass note for the IV chord (C), so no open tuning

Q: What is unusual about the scale George Boldwin uses to sing the melody of the song?
A: I hear a major 7th quite often and also a #4 when he sings "...country..." at 0:25-0:26


"Fandango"
Q: What playing position/tuning did Bill Tatnall use to play the tune?
A: Open D (at D)

Q: What chord does he play at :30--:31, and where is it fretted?
A: E chord, second fret barre

Q: What other name for a Country Blues guitar instrumental might more aptly have been used for "Fandango"?
A: I'm not sure if I understand this question correctly. The way I understand it, the answer would be that this tune should rather be called something that's connected to "Siege of Sebastopol", which is the model tune for open D, rather than relating to "Spanish Fandango", which is the model tune for Open G tuning. So I'd call it "Siege".

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've been transcribing the lyrics for Wallace Chains' version of "Ella Speed" on the last previous page of this thread, at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89803#msg89803 , and I think I have it except for one bent bracketed portion.  I'd very much appreciate help with that phrase.  Thanks.
All best,
Johnm