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Country Blues => Weenie Campbell Main Forum => Topic started by: Johnm on May 19, 2011, 09:32:51 AM
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Hi all,
We have a thread focusing on "The Influence of Lonnie Johnson", and I thought it might be interesting to have a similar thread devoted to Lemon Jefferson's influence on other musicians in the blues. I'm not talking necessarily about obvious influences, like covers of his songs, though they're fun to mention, but less obvious instances of his musical ideas, riffs, melodies and lyrics creeping into the shared language of the blues.
Just to get the ball rolling, a Lemon-influenced performance that struck me yesterday is Tommy Johnson's "Lonesome Home Blues, Takes 1 and 2", which is the song Tommy played in A, rather than the the "Lonesome Home" he played in E. Tommy Johnson was not a player I think of as sounding at all like Lemon, but the opening phrase of this "Lonesome Home" comes right from Lemon's "Matchbox Blues".
Any other Lemon-influenced performances out there that folks would care to mention? Confining ourselves to one or two instances per post will allow more people to participate. What do you have, folks?
All best,
Johnm
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Hi all,
We have a thread focusing on "The Influence of Lonnie Johnson", and I thought it might be interesting to have a similar thread devoted to Lemon Jefferson's influence on other musicians in the blues. I'm not talking necessarily about obvious influences, like covers of his songs, though they're fun to mention, but less obvious instances of his musical ideas, riffs, melodies and lyrics creeping into the shared language of the blues.
Just to get the ball rolling, a Lemon-influenced performance that struck me yesterday is Tommy Johnson's "Lonesome Home Blues, Takes 1 and 2", which is the song Tommy played in A, rather than the the "Lonesome Home" he played in E. Tommy Johnson was not a player I think of as sounding at all like Lemon, but the opening phrase of this "Lonesome Home" comes right from Lemon's "Matchbox Blues".
Any other Lemon-influenced performances out there that folks would care to mention? Confining ourselves to one or two instances per post will allow more people to participate. What do you have, folks?
All best,
Johnm
You mean the Victor 'Lonesome Home', not the Paramount one, right?
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The one played in A, of which there are two takes. Not the one played in E, of which there is only one take.
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The one played in A, of which there are two takes.
That's the 1928 Victor recording.
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Otis Harris
His singular 78PRM disc, sounds like a fast (more danceable) version of a typical BLJ theme.
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That's interesting about Lonesome Home Blues -- I don't think I'd noticed that before but it's clear as day.
King Solomon Hill took Lemon in some interesting directions on things like "Gone Dead Train" and "My Buddy, Blind Papa Lemon". Despite playing with slide in an open tuning, there's still a fair amount of Lemony characteristics, in the vocal and the complex, free quality of the phrasing. The opening line -- "Mmmmm-mmm, said mailman brought misery to my head" -- from "My Buddy, Blind Papa Lemon" is a quote from Lemon's "Gone Dead On You Blues", employed to sing about his death.
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Ramblin Thomas's Little Old Mama Blues?
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That's a great one, Professor. Ramblin' Thomas is so interesting because he has a number of licks there that come right out of Lemon's playing, but then a whole lot more, that based on the recorded evidence, at least, were his own. Ramblin' Thomas had such a distinctive sound, it's a shame he stopped recording so relatively early.
All best,
Johnm
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Ramblin' Thomas is also in Lemon territory on No Baby Blues. What's so cool about Thomas is how he both sounds like Lemon but brings new ideas and licks to the overall sound, integrates a little Lemon here (like those descending octaves in the solo), throws in something completely new there. He's always a rewarding listening experience for me.
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Hi all,
Lemon Jefferson's recording of "Rabbit's Foot Blues" was epoch-making in terms of its effect on the language of blues guitar. If we look just at his up-the neck accompaniment to his verse two (and several subsequent verses), we can find two licks that were widely borrowed and used by other players.
The first lick is Lemon's rocking motion between his I chord and IV7 chords. At this point he is playing his A chord out of a D shape on the first three strings at 9-10-9 (third string to first string). When he goes to his IV7 chord in the second bar, he pivots on the common tone A note on the second string and fingers the IV7 chord on the first three strings: 11-10-8. This move really caught musicians' ears, and was subsequently utilized by the following players, among others, who in many instances, transposed the move to other keys:
* Walter Vinson used it in dropped D for "Stop And Listen Blues"
* Bo Carter used it in his G tuning, DGDGBE, for "I Want You To Know", "I Get The Blues", "Arrangement For Me Blues" and a host of other songs.
The second move of Lemon's in his verse two accompaniment to "Rabbit's Foot Blues" that was picked up by a lot of players immediately follows the rock from I to IV7. In this move, the I chord rocks back and forth between a I triad and a I6 chord, utilizing these two shapes, respectively: I chord: 9-10-9 I6 chord: 11-10-9. This move was utilized in the following later recordings:
* Tommy Johnson used it in D for "Canned Heat Blues". Tommy added a move from the flat III to the III on the fourth string that Lemon had not used in "Rabbit's Foot Blues", so he expanded on Lemon's idea.
* Bo Carter used the riff intact for the signature lick to "Bo Carter's Advice", which he played in A, and for the intro and solo to "Shake 'Em On Down", which he played in his G tuning.
One of the interesting things about the way that these other players worked with Lemon's musical materials was that in every instance, the player expressed the idea in accordance with his own sense of time and phrasing, rather than trying to copy Lemon's timing. Perhaps there are two reasons for this--Lemon's timing being so individualistic that it was unduplicable with any comparable degree of fluidity, and a sense that expressing the lick in one's own sense of timing made it one's own.
All best,
Johnm
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Seems to me I can sense a BLJ influence in Kid Prince Moore's Bite Back Blues. Anyone else see this?
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This from Ernie Hawkins: Lightnin' Hopkins Bad Luck and Trouble (G) incorporates several Lemon moves from tunes like Crawlin' Baby. The licks off the Gm chord at the 8th-10th fret on the intro and breaks, and the 3b-2nd pull offs in first position in the verse.
Also, when playing in A, Lightin's 4-chord licks off the 5-7th fret A-form D are pure Lemon.
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I was just listening to Mance Lipscomb yesterday and came across "Mr. Tom's Rag." Not sure if it is so much influenced by as it is a straight cover of BLJ's "Hot Dogs".
Another example that comes to mind (and there are lots) is Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues." Not exact riffs, but I do think the influence of BLJ is there. (It is reported that Clarence Greene and Walter Davis spent lots of time watching Blind Lemon Jefferson play on street corners in their town, although whether that was THE Lemon Jefferson or someone using the name (?) is, I guess, a reasonable question). I do think BLJ had a massive influence -- I'd like to think Jimmie Rodgers got some of those crazy bass runs from listening to Jefferson.
--peter
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I was just listening to Mance Lipscomb yesterday and came across "Mr. Tom's Rag." Not sure if it is so much influenced by as it is a straight cover of BLJ's "Hot Dogs".
There's another version of the same tune recorded by Leadbelly under the name "Easy Mr Tom".
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Another interesting question is how many early blues songs refer to Blind Lemon in the lyrics and/or are dedicated to him. I know of these:
Lead Belly - My Friend Blind Lemon
Lead Belly - Silver City Bound
King Solomon Hill - My Buddy Blind Papa Lemon
Rev. Emmet Dickenson - The Death of Blind Lemon
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Another interesting question is how many early blues songs refer to Blind Lemon in the lyrics and/or are dedicated to him. I know of these:
Lead Belly - My Friend Blind Lemon
Lead Belly - Silver City Bound
King Solomon Hill - My Buddy Blind Papa Lemon
Rev. Emmet Dickenson - The Death of Blind Lemon
There's also Washboard Walter & John Byrd's "Wasn't it sad about Lemon?"
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...goin back to influence, Texas Alexanders' 1934 Easy Rider has a cool "intro" bit where accompanyist Carl Davis plays Lemon's run - he does it only the once at the 15 second mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdzCIaanmM
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Why was King Solomon Hill called "Blind Lemon's Buddy" and why did Will Ezell accompany Lemon's coffin on the train to his burying place? Were they very close with Blind Lemon?
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According to Jefferson biographer Robert Uzzel at least, Will Ezell was hired by Paramount to accompany the body back to Texas. I assume Ezell was (like Jefferson) a Paramount recording artist in Chicago on business or to record. (Jefferson reportedly left the Paramount studios earlier in the day, though it is assumed he was there on business since he did not record that day.)
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It's such an obvious cover but I have to mention Larry Hensley's Matchbox Blues since he does such a good job with it. Cops a lot of licks from the boss but the feel is a lot different, and there are a couple of really nice guitar ideas in there that Lemon, to my knowledge, never expressed, on record anyway. It's on White County Blues, 1926-1938 A Whiter Shade of Pale, Columbia Legacy.
While we're at it, on the same record, check out My Good Gal Has Thrown Me Down, Homer Callahan. He's no Lemon but the influence is clear and I can't help liking it. From a pure documentary aspect it does throw some light on JM's original thought, how did Lemon influence the musicians who were hooked on his music back then, whether they be one-session-wonders, long career artists, black or white?
[later] Check out the brazen Lemon lick, mixed with brazen Frank McGee licks, who probably stole them from Son House & Lemon. Complicated unraveling this stuff. It should be incongruous but somehow it works beautifully, on the Anglin Bros' Southern Whoopee Blues, on the same record.[/later]
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Hi all,
Dr. Ross's "Going to The River" is a cover of Lemon's "Wartime Blues", though Dr. Ross plays the song as a one-chord shuffle in Vestapol.
All best,
Johnm
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Seems to me I can sense a BLJ influence in Kid Prince Moore's Bite Back Blues. Anyone else see this?
This just came round in iTunes. I agree, LD50, definitely a "Lemon in A position" feel to a lot of this song.
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Lemon's influence certainly extended to hillbilly blues and white music, as Rivers notes.
Two quotes I had added to one of the Quote Drive threads a couple years ago, from Tony Russell's Blacks, Whites and Blues.
Up 'til then, the blues were only inside me. Blind Lemon was the first to 'let out' the blues. - Roscoe Holcomb
It was along about that time that Blind Lemon Jefferson came through, and he stayed around there about a month. He stayed with the other colored fellows and they worked on the railroad there; he'd just sing and play to entertain the men in the work camp. I think that right about there I started on the guitar. - Hobart Smith recalls Lemon in Virginia, c. WWI.
Hobart Smith did a cover of See That My Grave is Kept Clean. And his Brown Skin Blues, according to the dialogue that concludes the recording, comes from Lemon ("That was one of Blind Lemon's, right?" "Yeah, uh-huh.") I don't hear the source song clearly myself, curious what others think. All that came to mind was Hot Dogs because of the footwork. The notes to the In Sacred Trust disc this is found on say perhaps Smith actually learned it from Bob "Shad" Campbell, a Caucasian albino who played with Smith.
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Lemon's influence didn't extend only to musicians. Recording directors were also influenced by Lemon and, hoping for a hit, influenced the repertoire of the musicians they were recording. The most famous example is probably Art Laibley's asking Son House, Charley Patton, and Willie Brown if any of them could play See That My Grave Is Kept Clean. Patton and Brown may have passed - at any rate any attempt from them has not survived. But House went back to his room with Louise Johnson, worked half the night adding his own words to Lemon's melody, and the next day recorded Mississippi County Farm. The song became a mainstay of House's repertoire, but would not have existed without Laibley's prodding.
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...you got to take sick and die is to the same arrangement, as is motherless children
Also Tom Shaw did a tonnes of lemon songs
Big Joe Williams did peach orchard mama
Skip James and Blind Willie McTell did (superior renditions of) one dime blues, as did Oscar and Newton Nelson
and of course everyone who did two/six white horses, like Joe Evans and Aruthur McClain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Xa9ecX0rI
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Dr. Ross's "Going to The River" is a cover of Lemon's "Wartime Blues", though Dr. Ross plays the song as a one-chord shuffle in Vestapol.
Mance Lipscomb's "Evil Blues" bears more than a passing resemblance to "Wartime" as well, at least musically.
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I recall reading awhile back that Robert Johnson (or at least some aspects of his guitar playing) was originally (we're talking many decades ago) thought to have been influenced by Jefferson. That notion seems to have been lost over the years in favor of the more obvious Carr, House, etc. influences. At the time I read this, I recall thinking there was something to it, but I'd have to listen to Johnson again with this notion in mind to re-assess the possibility. Of course, any influence would have had to have been via record.
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For those who have not seen this great article by Jas Obrecht on Blind Lemon:
http://jasobrecht.com/blind-lemon-jefferson-star-blues-guitar/
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I often think Jimmie Rodgers must have had Lemon in head. Not in the same league, or universe, vocally or on guitar, but that off-timing feel thing he has that drove his accompanists crazy yet works perfectly for the listener and by the way is very hard to copy, often reminds me of Lemon.
Chris Albertson describes it very well in his bio on Rodgers, seems he was incapable of keeping it 'straight' and had to play it out the way he felt it. A good example is Blue Yodel No 4 (California Blues), the steel player in particular barely seeming, to me, to make it to the end without a having musical nervous breakdown. Stressful stuff, which is why we love it.
If this theory is correct Rodgers may have channeled Lemon's influence into that generation of 'country', whatever we understand that term to mean. I have nothing to back this up, except for my ears and the timeline. I can't imagine a parallel universe where JR does not break the same timing rules (end of measure sneaky syncopated stuff going on, and unpredictable resolution) that Lemon broke and still remains as interesting. I think he was listening to him.
Looking at the timeline, Lemon became huge in race records commencing his recording run in 1926. Rodgers started 1927. Rodgers hung out with blues players, and liked to hang in the black parts of town. Final point, Blue Yodel, various 'Numbers'. I find it easy to imagine Rodgers developing his falsetto yodel in an attempt to get somewhere near the dynamic intensity Lemon creates with his glorious crescendo tenor hollering, and accidentally inventing something entirely distinctive in its own right. God I would love to have seen both of them.
My next project is listening to the earliest recordings of the both of them. Need B&GR on my iPod though or it will have to wait til the weekend.
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I might be wide of the mark on this one, I am no way near an expert like most of you people. I always thought that Peg Leg Howell sounded like he was influneced by Lemon on his standard tuned songs, New Prison Blues for example... why I am doubting myself is because he was older and first recorded roughly the sametime, maybe it is the other way round, maybe Lemon was influnced by him.
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I don't think you can match-up when two bluesmen recorded with whether one influenced the other. Unlike today, such influence in the 1920s and 1930s was likely via "live" performance or mentoring.
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On the other hand, misterjones, if one musician's initial recordings came chronologically later than another musician's, the later musician may have been influenced by the earlier's recordings, but the earlier's recordings may not have been influenced by the later's recordings. It is impossible to gauge personal contacts among musicians except in so far as they were documented either via recordings or anecdotally, but there is plenty of evidence that as soon as musicians started putting out records, other musicians started copying their work. There are plenty of recordings from the '20s of people trying to copy Lonnie Johnson and Lemon, in particular.
All best,
Johnm
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Certainly, and Robert Johnson is an example of someone influenced by records. It became an increasingly used method for the curious bluesman-to-be to hear what others were doing. I just meant that one cannot assume that one who recorded first could not have been influenced by one who recorded later. And from what I've read, it seems like the influences in the 1920s and 1930s were, for the most part, gathered by in-person contact rather than through records.
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Hi all,
Blind Boy Fuller was greatly influenced by Lemon. The opening lick to his intro to "Untrue Blues" comes right out of "Rabbit's Foot Blues", though Fuller swung his eighth notes and Lemon played straight eighths. Ditto "Meat Shakin' Woman", which derives its melody from "Bad Luck Blues". I'm sure there is more of Lemon's music in Fuller's but these two instances came to mind first. Fuller was kind of a magpie, and utilized ideas and material from Rev. Davis, Josh White, Blind Blake and Buddy Moss in addition to Lemon, while always re-casting ideas in his own style.
All best,
Johnm
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Certainly, and Robert Johnson is an example of someone influenced by records. It became an increasingly used method for the curious bluesman-to-be to hear what others were doing. I just meant that one cannot assume that one who recorded first could not have been influenced by one who recorded later. And from what I've read, it seems like the influences in the 1920s and 1930s were, for the most part, gathered by in-person contact rather than through records.
Well of course, and I'm sorry if I implied that, but reading back through I don't think I did, that was entirely your perception. One thing I can state with absolute certainty, JR didn't influence Lemon all that much. :P
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Oh yeah, and I forgot, Harvey, I think you're right about Peg Leg Howell being influenced by Lemon, specifically on "Doin' Wrong", which shows some similarity to "Got The Blues".
All best,
Johnm
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I think it's worth reiterating that as soon as records started being made and sold, they started influencing musicians. And a lot of those records were likely by classic blues and vaudeville singers mostly forgotten or at least ignored today even by aficionados.
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Alan Lomax provides some illumination on the channel for said BLJ (and other) influences: juke boxes.
I remember being very surprised to read, in The Land Where Blues Began (I think it was), of how prevalent and popular juke boxes became at a much earlier stage than I had previously assumed. I'll see if I can find the reference.
Which makes perfect sense. How else could these early players, living on the outskirts of poverty, have heard this material unless it was from shellac disks, shipped out of Illinois, Wisconsin and NYC, being spun-up at local gathering places?
I'm hoping Bunker Hill will chime in here, I'm sure he has just the right clipping in his massive archives, and the memory to be able to find it.
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Certainly, and Robert Johnson is an example of someone influenced by records. It became an increasingly used method for the curious bluesman-to-be to hear what others were doing. I just meant that one cannot assume that one who recorded first could not have been influenced by one who recorded later. And from what I've read, it seems like the influences in the 1920s and 1930s were, for the most part, gathered by in-person contact rather than through records.
Well of course, and I'm sorry if I implied that, but reading back through I don't think I did, that was entirely your perception. One thing I can state with absolute certainty, JR didn't influence Lemon all that much. :P
I'm a bit confused, since I was responding to Johnm's post. In any event, if by "JR" you mean Robert Johnson, I cannot make a case for the contrary. I was just noting that I had read awhile back that that was an initial impression of some many years ago when Johnson was originally being re-discovered. I have not read anything recently that draws such a conclusion.
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Alan Lomax provides some illumination on the channel for said BLJ (and other) influences: juke boxes.
I remember being very surprised to read, in The Land Where Blues Began (I think it was), of how prevalent and popular juke boxes became at a much earlier stage than I had previously assumed. I'll see if I can find the reference.
Which makes perfect sense. How else could these early players, living on the outskirts of poverty, have heard this material unless it was from shellac disks, shipped out of Illinois, Wisconsin and NYC, being spun-up at local gathering places?
I'm hoping Bunker Hill will chime in here, I'm sure he has just the right clipping in his massive archives, and the memory to be able to find it.
I think you refer to the The Dipsie Doodle juke joint David Edwards (Honeyboy as he is known today) took Lomax too in 1942. Taking out his notebook Lomax immediately
..."approached the jukebox, research bound, for we planned not only to record more fragments of folk song that still remained in this urbanised country, but also to study that musical shrine of the generation, the mechanical phonograph".
At that shrine he found, amongst others, Tampa Red's "Don?t You Lie To Me", Big Bill's "When I?ve Been Drinking", Frank Edward's "Terra Plane Blues? and a record by a black vocal group entitled "Biscuit Baking Mama" and observed that "most of the singers no longer lived down home but they knew how to contrive a song that appealed to the home folks".
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Hi all,
The Down Home Boys recording of "Mama, You Don't Know How", from 1927, has Long Cleve Reed, Papa Harvey Hull and Sunny Wilson re-working Lemon's "Black Snake Moan".
All best,
Johnm
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Good one. And as you have pointed out previously in the Mandolin Blues thread (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=282.msg9470#msg9470), Furry Lewis's Sweet Papa Moan with Charles Jackson on mandolin is based melodically on Black Snake Moan.
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Mance Lipscomb does a fairly straight-up cover of Easy Rider Blues, with some alternate lyrics. Can be heard on the Captain, Captain disc.
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In part IV of their article on the history of Paramount Records (78 Quarterly No.6), Wardlow & Calt remind us how Jefferson caused a slew of obscure blues artists to be recorded, who probably would not have been recorded otherwise. Paramount and others, not seeing much further than the fact that Jefferson sounded strange and different to them, recorded the strange and different hoping to stumble across another Jefferson. It didn't work, for the most part, but it gave collectors something to smile about and be thankful for many years later.
As I noted previously, pdf reprints of 78 Quarterly (Nos.1-6) can be found fairly easily on the internet.
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In part IV of their article on the history of Paramount Records (78 Quarterly No.6), Wardlow & Calt remind us how Jefferson caused a slew of obscure blues artists to be recorded, who probably would not have been recorded otherwise. Paramount and others, not seeing much further than the fact that Jefferson sounded strange and different to them, recorded the strange and different hoping to stumble across another Jefferson. It didn't work, for the most part, but it gave collectors something to smile about and be thankful for many years later.
As I noted previously, pdf reprints of 78 Quarterly (Nos.1-6) can be found fairly easily on the internet.
Then thanks a lot to Blind Lemon for making strange and different music! :)
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Just to add Blind Joe Reynolds and the dude who recorded under the name "Mississippi Moaner" to the list of direct influences
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Honeyboy Edwards was influenced as well by Blind Lemon:
http://paramountshome.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75:a-touch-of-lemon&catid=45:new-york-recording-laboratoriesartist&Itemid=54
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Just to add Blind Joe Reynolds and the dude who recorded under the name "Mississippi Moaner" to the list of direct influences
Further to the Blind Joe Reynolds reference. Ninety Nine Blues sounds like it could have been influenced by Dry Southern Blues with the C chord that's rocking back and forth, and it also uses a Lemon-y bass riff in the solo. Third Street Woman Blues uses the vocal melody for Black Snake Moan. Both songs show the influence of Lemon but go off in very interesting directions. Cool stuff.
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So who did influence Blind Lemon? :)
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I assume he picked up bits and pieces from musicians he heard on the streets as a youth. Perhpas there are elements of southern gospel or aspects of African-American church services he incorporated, as well. I also hear field hollers in his voice, and even some phrasing of Leadbelly (though I'm not sure who influenced whom in the latter regard.) But what do I know? I hear the Golden Gate Jubilee Quartet in the recordings of the young Elvis Presley.
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Hi all,
There's little point trying to re-construct the influences on Lemon's sound at this point. Where the first generation of Country Blues musicians to record either did not have the opportunity to talk about who they learned music from, or were never asked, we're pretty much shut off forever from any sense of who, in particular, influenced their music. The point of the thread is that in terms of influencing the greatest number of musicians possible, recording made all the difference in the world, for it made it possible for Lemon and other recording artists to influence hosts of musicians who would never see or hear them perform in person. Recordings make it possible to trace the dissemination of musical ideas, both instrumental and in lyrics. It's one reason why the more particular the point of influence cited is, the more telling it is.
All best,
Johnm
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Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't think anyone's mentioned Big Bill's late recordings of CC Rider which is a straight enough copy of Lemon's 'cept of course BBB can't help but swing a thing like crazy and boy howdy does he ever! Lemon's version is sublime, and despite BBB's claim to have learned a lot of his guitar playing from an older local musician named "See See Rider" the original source for Broonzy's version is clearly Blind Lemon, even if he received it second hand. A tip of the hat by the best to the best...can't beat it with a stick!
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Re. influences, I believe vocal power, being born with a natural instrument, allows singers to do whatever they choose to do, incorporating whatever influences happen to be current, as well as their tastes in 'retro sheik'. The guitar starts out as a backup instrument, if you then master it like Lemon did, and with that voice, you have no restraints on your power to invent or redefine genres. The voice is key to bending the music.
Examples are legion; Patton, Bessie Smith (no instrument just the voice), McTell, Gary Davis, Leadbelly, Robert Johnson, Stokes, Blake & Fuller (over-compensating on guitar to make up for the not quite stellar but totally adequate voice perhaps), it's a long list. Vocals rule, I have to just try and keep up. Then there's Furry Lewis, MJH and all kinds of other exceptions to that rule. Hey, it's folk music, usually, but Lemon was a country blues Pavarotti. It's really no wonder he still has the almost classical influence that he does. In fact I think it just gets stronger over time.
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Mance Lipscomb does a fairly straight-up cover of Easy Rider Blues, with some alternate lyrics. Can be heard on the Captain, Captain disc.
I am listening to a lot of Mance at the moment, really good stuff Captian, Captain and Texas Songster.
Also sounds an obvious one, apologies if it has been mentioned in this thread already, but would fit into the same description as almost a straight-up cover with lyrics changed is One Thin Dime on Texas Songster - I really like both these tracks as
a. The original Blind Lemon songs are so damn good
b. The covers are so Mance.... if that makes sense.
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In the case of "One Thin Dime," I would make the argument that that song was established in tradition and came to both Mance and Lemon through that route. Mance's playing of the tune and his sung melody is actually different than Lemon's, and Mance in interviews explicitly talks about learning that tune about 10 years before he heard Lemon play.
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I've never found much Lemon in Lightnin' Hopkins' playing but I just caught a vid of Lightnin' where he announces he's going to play 'O My Baby Take Me Back' which we can assume he got from Lemon's 'Take Me Back' & just before he launches into it he plays a couple of Lemony licks in 'C' (the song is in this position too, a rare one for Lightnin' I think). Check it out here at the end of this video at about the 9:44 point & then part two below has the whole performance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OPBtoOtpSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrDLkN5324U&feature=related
I remember hearing some early Bill Monroe & my memory is that you can hear the guitarist do that great treble run Lemon does in songs like 'Got the Blues' . . .
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May have been mentioned before, but Blind Willie McTell's 'Last Dime Blues' seems to have been picked up note for note from BLJ. Or maybe he learned it from Ari Eisinger?
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Absolutely agree, I posted that one on the 'great covers' thread. Was he influenced though, beyond being able to rattle-off a really good cover in the style?
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[/quoteWas he influenced though, beyond being able to rattle-off a really good cover in the style?
That's a very good question. One for the Philosophy Dept?
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Hi all,
Years ago here, in another thread, frankie cited McTell's "Drive Away Blues" as being influenced by Lemon's "Right Of Way". I argued against it at the time, but have come to agree with him. Lemon varies "Right of Way" considerably less than did McTell vary "Drive Away", but McTell's signature lick seems a pretty clear cop of Lemon's, plus the title phrase, "drive away" versus "ride away". McTell pretty much admitted to being a magpie about stealing and utilizing other people's ideas. Why not steal from the best?
All best,
Johnm
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I've been listening to Eugene Powell recently, and he shows the influence of Lemon in some interesting ways. Powell's "Pony Blues", recorded as Sonny Boy Nelson in 1936, uses a variation of one of the verses Lemon used in "Got the Blues".
Lemon sings:
I was raised in Texas, schooled in Tennessee
I was raised in Texas, was schooled in Tennessee
Said, woman, you can?t make no fatmouth outa me
Powell sings:
I was borned in Texas but I was raised out on the Sante Field
I was borned in Texas, man I was raised out on the Sante Field
And you know by that baby you can't make no fatmouth out of me
Recorded in 1981 doing a version of the song called "Born In Texas" (or alternatively "Texas - Sante Fe"), he uses the same verse. During the same recording session on another song called "Blues In Texas", Powell uses another verse from "Got the Blues" and Lemon-like riffs throughout, singing:
Well the blues left from Texas lopin' like a doggone mule
The blues left from Texas lopin' like a doggone mule
Now what you gonna do when you get all [??]
Then he sings a version of a verse from Wartime Blues:
What you women gonna do when they take your man to war?
What you women gonna do when they take your man to war?
You're gonna have to drink muddy water, sleep in a hollow log
The guitar playing on the song (in A position tuned down, I believe, though could be G - haven't sussed it out) is clearly influenced by Lemon -- though the overall style of the song is still very individual, itself quite loping, if you will, in its rhythm.
His playing on "When I Leave Town" and "Mississippi River" from 1982 also occasionally show the influence of Lemon in the treble riffs.
Powell was recorded numerous times post-war and there has been a fair amount previously released on vinyl, but not a lot made it to CD. That's a shame as he is a really inventive player worth checking out. His prewar recordings show a bit more influence from Lonnie Johnson and a little Blind Blake to my ear.
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I am finding this thread quite interesting, as I would like to compile a CD's worth of Lemon covers (or reasonable facsimiles thereof). They need not be exact. Songs like The Down Home Boys' recording of "Mama, You Don't Know How" do just fine. I think I'll make a list from those suggested here then ask for additional recommendations.
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I am finding this thread quite interesting, as I would like to compile a CD's worth of Lemon covers (or reasonable facsimiles thereof). They need not be exact. Songs like The Down Home Boys' recording of "Mama, You Don't Know How" do just fine. I think I'll make a list from those suggested here then ask for additional recommendations.
Cool idea. :) Looking forward to the list.
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Working on my own "Blind Lemon Box" since I don't think anyone will ever do it to my liking - i.e., best sounding transfers (with limited noise reduction) of all available sides. I figure a nice disc 5 would be some Lemon covers/influences (Lemon influencing others, that is) and tributes. I've back-burnered it for a couple weeks. I completed disc 1, for the most part, and started on the influences/tributes. I need to listen to all nominees to make sure they are a good fit.
Those tentatively in so far for "Covers and Influences" are:
Gone Dead Train King Solomon Hill
Tell Me Baby King Solomon Hill
Black Snake Moan Leadbelly (Leadbelly (Sony))
Matchbox Blues Leadbelly (Leadbelly (Sony))
See See Rider Lightnin' Hopkins (Complete Aladdin)
One Kind of Favor Lightnin' Hopkins (1946-1951 (JSP))
Back Door Blues Bo Jones (Texas Blues (Document))
Leavenworth Prison Blues Bo Jones (Texas Blues Document))
Leavin' Home Willie Reed (Texas Blues (Document))
Goin' Back to My Baby Willie Reed (Texas Blues (Document))
Those I have to listen to are:
Little Old Mama Blues Ramblin Thomas
No Baby Blues Ramblin Thomas
Bite Back Blues Kid Prince Moore
Mr. Tom's Rag Mance Lipscomb
Easy Rider Blues Mance Lipscomb
One Thin Dime Mance Lipscomb (Texas Songster)
Johnson City Blues Clarence Greene
Matchbox Blues Larry Hensley (White County Blues)
My Good Gal Has Thrown Me Down Homer Callahan (White County Blues)
Going to the River Isaiah Ross
See That My Grave Is Kept Clean Hobart Smith (Alan Lomax Blues Songbook )
Brown Skin Blues Hobart Smith
Big Joe Williams Peach Orchard Mama
One Dime Blues Skip James
One Dime Blues Blind Willie McTell
Drive Away Blues Blind Willie McTell
Evil Blues Mance Lipscomb
Doin' Wrong Peg Leg Howell
Mama, You Don't Know How The Down Home Boys
Sweet Papa Moan Furry Lewis
Ninety-Nine Blues Blind Joe Reynolds
Third Street Woman Blues Blind Joe Reynolds
Big Bill Broonzy C.C. Rider
"Tributes" nominations include:
My Buddy, Blind Papa Lemon King Solomon Hill
Blind Lemon Leadbelly
I'm trying not to over-do any one artist, and I'd like to not go too far past WWII. Nomination/substitution suggestions are still welcome.
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Silver City Bound is a great tribute by Leadbelly for Blind Lemon.
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[Just listening to Jeff Harris' Big Road Blues radio program &] Mattie Delaney's 'Down the Big Road Blues' features the 'Got The Blues' run that Lemon plays out of 'G' position.
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Pernell Charity's Blind Lemon's Blues is not surprisingly influenced by Lemon, borrowing heavily and very nicely from Lemon's playing in A position. It has Lemon influenced lyrics as well, alluding to DB Blues for one.
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I thought this had already been mentioned here but apparently not.
Belton Sutherland's "Kill the Old Grey Mule" (also going by "Blues #1" on YouTube) begins with the first verse of Lemon's Prison Cell Blues. Sutherland sings:
Tired of sleeping, lowdown lonesome cell
Tired of sleeping, babe, lowdown lonesome cell
And I wouldn't have been here, hadn't 've been for Nell
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I came a little late to this thread but very interesting. "Long Lonesome Blues" was reworked by The Mississippi Moaner and Jesse Thomas. The Mississippi Moaner recorded five sides for Vocalion Records in Jackson, MS, on October 20, 1935. Only one 78 from the session was ever released, "Mississippi Moan" b/w "It's Cold in China Blues" (the song title was a lyric used in Blind Lemon's song). Jesse Thomas' 1948 number, "Double Due Love You" opens with lyrics also taken from the Blind Lemon song. Thomas also recorded "Jack of Diamonds" in 1951. Not sure if Thomas and Blind Lemon ever crossed paths.
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Not sure if Thomas and Blind Lemon ever crossed paths.
FWIW when Eleanor Ellis interviewed him in 1990 Thomas told her he heard BLJ in Dallas but it was Lonnie Johnson at the Della B Moore Theatre that inspired him to take up guitar "I thought I was going to be another Lonnie Johnson! I even learned how to play like him...I was 16 years old then".
Blues & Rhythm 82, Sept 1993, p. 13"
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Rube Lacy learnt how to play like Blind Lemon and invited him to Itta Bene to play together so I guess he was influenced by BLJ.
http://paramountshome.org/articles/RubinLacy.pdf (http://paramountshome.org/articles/RubinLacy.pdf)
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Hi all,
The article says that Lacy met Lemon after having recorded "Mississippi Jail House Groan" and "Ham Hound Crave". Those songs are not influenced by Lemon, and don't sound like they are. As to Lacy's claim that he could play everything that Lemon played, but Lemon couldn't play everything he played, I think it can be chalked up to the roseate glow cast by an inaccurate and wishful memory. Ever notice how Lemon must have been in seven places at once, based on all the people who say that they heard him, hung out with him, remember when he visited and stayed in their town, etc.? I think it's best not to receive these kind of reminiscences too credulously, or take them at face value.
All best,
Johnm
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Further to the earlier post about Eugene Powell (Sonny Boy Nelson) being influenced by Lemon, here he is doing his take on Matchbox Blues. It's fascinating to me to see and hear how Powell was really influenced by Lemon and yet has a style all his own. He's such an inventive player, I really dig him.
Sonny Boy Nelson: Matchbox Blues (1978) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_STrEcv1Ig#)
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Jimmie Gordon's Mojo Blues from 1939 uses a version of the last verse from Lemon's Piney Woods Money Mama. Gordon sings:
And I love that woman like a cow love to chew her cud
Says I love that woman like a cow love to chew her cud
She have made all of that money and moved back to the piney wood
Gordon also uses lyrics that appear in McTell's Scarey Day Blues.
Musically, he's pretty far from both of them in this tune. Sax, trumpet, piano, drums, slick urban sound.
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Jimmie Gordon's Mojo Blues from 1939 uses a version of the last verse from Lemon's Piney Woods Money Mama
He even mispronounces cud the same way Lemon did so it rhymes with wood.
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Just noticed that the first verse of Will Batts' 'Cadillac Baby' is just about the same as the last verse of Lemon's 'Booger Rooger Blues'.
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Daddy Stovepipe and Whistlin' Pete do an odd cover of Lemon's Black Snake Moan as Black Snake Blues.
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Johnny Shines' "Going to the River" is a quite Lemony version of "Long Lonesome Blues" and other Lemon in A position material.
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Roy Dunn does "Roy's Matchbox Blues", which begins and ends with the "will a matchbox hold my clothes" verse, although musically Dunn's song is not related to Lemon's.
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Ed Bell has some Lemon influences in at least two songs.
In "Rosca Mama Blues" he uses the musical ideas of Lemon's tunes in E like "Piney Woods Money Mama" and "Oil Well Blues". Bell plays the song in Vestapol tuning though, as JohnM pointed out in the Ed Bell lyrics thread (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=219.msg42230#msg42230).
In the intro solo to "One More Time", Bell uses pieces of two Lemon riffs. Both are from Lemon's playing in C, although Bell is playing in Spanish tuning and transposing the musical ideas to other strings. One is a Lemon riff normally played up on the 3rd and 2nd strings but is here played on the 4th and 3rd strings and descending into the bass. And it's followed directly by another variant on Lemon's playing in C, the famous treble riff done at the 3rd through 5th frets of the top 2 strings, but here done once again in a lower register. They're subtle but they both have Lemon's fingerprints on them, IMO. They've just been reset by Bell in different contexts.
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Hard to say whether this is a Lemon influence or just a verse in common, but in "Peaceful Blues", Texas Alexander sings:
I love my woman better than a cow loves to chew her cud
I love my woman better than a cow loves to chew her cud
But the fool she got mad, moved to the piney wood
Lemon recorded his similar verse at the end of Piney Woods Money Mama in 1928. Texas Alexander uses it as his last verse in this song from 1929.
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Kansas Joe (with Memphis Minnie) uses the melody of "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" for "You Know You Done Me Wrong", though it is pitched around G and played out of either standard G position or Spanish (haven't checked but sounds like G position).
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Another cover of Black Snake Moan, this one by Cobb and Underwood, which like Furry Lewis's Sweet Papa Moan, has mandolin.
Cobb And Underwood - Black Snake Moan (1930) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYyGGJdVHw#)
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Hi all,
I was listening to Babe Stovall today, from his Arcola CD, "The Old Ace", and the first song on the program, "Good Morning Blues" shows an interesting, back-hand Lemon influence. In fact the song is sort of one influence heaped on top of another--it is basically Kokomo Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" played in A somewhat in the manner of Blind Boy Fuller, with a final solo quoting Lemon's intro to "Matchbox Blues", up the neck. It's really nice, too, and sounds like Babe the whole time, not some weird pastiche.
All best,
Johnm
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I just listened to Ed Andrews' "Barrelhouse Blues" from 1924, somehow reminded me of some of Blind Lemons harmonies. Anyone hears the same?
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This one may be a chicken or egg situation given it is a May 1936 Library of Congress field recording made in the State Penitentiary in Richmond, Virginia. Clifton Wright sure sounds like he had been listening to Lemon when he sang Everywhere I Look This Morning, particularly after the first holler-like verse, once he starts reaching for the high, sustained melody notes. My guess is it is indeed Lemon influenced. You can hear it on the Document disc Field Recordings Vol 12 - Virginia and South Carolina DOCD-5614. And here it is on YouTube, though for some reason the last line of the recording is cut off.
CLIFTON WRIGHT EVERYWHERE I LOOK THIS MORNING 1936 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4N4jdONE60#)
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this one as I am just beginning from page 1 of the thread but chances are that the recording of white boys, Jimmie Davis & Leon Chapellear's version of Easy Rider Blues has not been mentioned as I think it's extremely obscure. The lyrics are a lot different but it's obvious that the guitar player is imitating Lemon's guitar style especially the opening lick which is straight from the Match Box Blues opening notes. Obviously Lemon was known by fascinated white musicians from an early date as well.
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For those who have not seen this great article by Jas Obrecht on Blind Lemon:
http://jasobrecht.com/blind-lemon-jefferson-star-blues-guitar/ (http://jasobrecht.com/blind-lemon-jefferson-star-blues-guitar/)
As so often happens here when I follow a link, there is nothing there now, does that article exist elsewhere ?
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A year ago or so Jas was the victim of a cyber attack. He's been slowly working to reinstate it all. Of the many country blues lost only the Blind Boy Fuller has be reinstated. It's well worth the read.
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You could contact Jas and ask him for a copy. Both his site and his Facebook page have contact info.
Here are a couple of links to BLJ articles that have been posted previously:
http://www.bluesandrhythm.co.uk/documents/121.pdf (http://www.bluesandrhythm.co.uk/documents/121.pdf)
https://digital.library.txstate.edu/bitstream/handle/10877/2663/fulltext.pdf (https://digital.library.txstate.edu/bitstream/handle/10877/2663/fulltext.pdf)
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B.H. -
The series on Atlanta artists is back up, save for the McTell piece.
pbl
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Hi all,
After having just read through the thread, I found that Lil' Son Jackson's recordings of "Blues Come To Texas" and "I Walked From Dallas", recorded for Arhoolie, have not previously been mentioned here. Lil' Son would have been around 10-12-years old when Lemon recorded the songs that his renditions were modeled on, so Lemon evidently made an impression. There was probably a time when if you lived in Texas and claimed to play the blues, you needed to be able to play one or two of Lemon's songs.
All best,
Johnm
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George Mitchell mentioned once there was one single question he asked all of the blues musicians he recorded, "Who was your biggest influence?" Without fail each one identified theirs as Blind Lemon Jefferson.
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George Mitchell mentioned once there was one single question he asked all of the blues musicians he recorded, "Who was your biggest influence?" Without fail each one identified theirs as Blind Lemon Jefferson.
That's interesting... although based on the recordings he actually made, you'd have to say that the single most pervasive influence seems to he Blind Boy Fuller - his songs are all over the recordings that George Mitchell made!
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Here's a theory; Nobody really sounds or plays like Blind Lemon Jefferson with a few exceptions such as Isaiah Nettles. I think, through his many 1920s Paramount recordings and their widespread popularity, that Lemon's main influence was to make many a young man want to take up guitar playing. After this new population of wanna-be bluesmen had gotten a bit more proficient on their instruments by the 1930s, they heard the recordings of Blind Boy Fuller who was much more accessible musically. His guitar licks and song structures could be copied and adapted much easier than anything by Lemon Jefferson. Lemon lit the spark and Fuller made the fire.
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Exactly what I was thinking. Some things never change, but they might get lost in time.
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Exactly what I was thinking. Some things never change, but they might get lost in time.
Ditto.
The Greenwood (MS) Commonwealth, Oct 5, 1928.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k9Y7iSvY4as/WI_yUl8jjJI/AAAAAAAADEE/QxEp5h4sZ8AxjBR6qJvICirZ1y9jRyf4QCLcB/s1600/BLIND%2BLEMON--The_Greenwood_Commonwealth_Fri__Oct_51928_.jpg)
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Now that newspaper clipping is awesome and sad at the same time :(
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Sad? Why?
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Sad because it was so near to his passing. Just about a year or so.
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Hi all,
One musician whose influence from Lemon shows up only intermittently in his recorded output is J. T. Smith. The Lemon influence shows primarily in his tunes played in C position standard tuning. Here are a couple, with apologies if non-U.S. Weenies can't watch the videos:
"Heart Bleeding Blues"
https://youtu.be/LI2q3LiOOMQ
"Forty Five Blues"
https://youtu.be/yna0sr40bAw
All best,
Johnm
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European Weenies can access the videos by clicking on the red YouTube icon at bottom left - at least that works for me!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the tip on the youtube work-around, Prof. I hope it works for other non-U.S. Weenies, too.
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I could not see that Pete Harris was mentioned in the thread. He recorded 13 songs with several Blind Lemon with one called "Blind Lemon's Song".
https://thedocumentrecordsstore.com/product/docd-5231/
Smith Casey also does "Jack O' Diamonds" and "Two White Horses Standing in Line" on the same CD.