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Author Topic: If there was one song....  (Read 4781 times)

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Blind Dawg

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If there was one song....
« on: September 09, 2009, 11:34:39 AM »
...that summed up them old Mississippi Delta blues, it would have to be Rube Lacys....Mississippi Jailhouse Groan. Which makes me wonder what song would best describe them old St.Louis, Texas, Alabama, Piedmont, Georgia, Memphis blues. Not sure it can be done.

Blind Dawg

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 03:40:26 AM »
  What you don't know, don't care...sheesh!

Offline waxwing

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 10:49:29 AM »
No offense, BD, but I think for most folks here at Weenie it's gonna fall into the "don't care" column. Those style classifications were created by the record industry long after the fact and the players had no knowledge that what they were playing would be classified "Delta" or "Piedmont" or whatever 20 or 30 years later, so, to most of us here they seem uninteresting as a way to discuss the music.

Also, you'll find we tend to shy away from the purely subjective arguments about who's the best.... or in this case, what song is the best.... etc. Everybody has their own favorites, and that's fine, but we leave the heated arguments about who is right about which is best to some of the other forums.

Don't get me wrong, we still express lots of emotion over the great work of many of the individual artists, and we always get excited over finding the more obscure artists that we may not have heard much. It's just the polls and favorite picking that other forums seem to relish arguing judgmentally about that we stay away from here. (Not pointing any fingers)

Hope you understand where we're coming from. Mississippi Jailhouse Groan is a very cool tune. So are literally hundreds of songs created by other players in a similar style, mostly from around the broad, flat, cotton plantation dominated area between the Mississippi River and the Yazoo River.

Wax

[Edit] Of course somebody's gonna prove me wrong now by listing their choices for most exemplary song in every category they can think of, right? -G-
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:52:50 AM by waxwing »
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Offline Richard

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 11:30:34 AM »
Quote
Of course somebody's gonna prove me wrong now by listing their choices for most exemplary song in every category they can think of, right? -G-

Sodt's Law says they will  ;)
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline GhostRider

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 10:03:32 PM »
OK:

I'll disagree a bit. I think the ultimate delta blues is "Future Blues" by Willie Brown.
But I'll play the game:

St. Louis - Cairo Blues - Spaulding
Piedmont - Diddie Wa Diddie - Blind Blake
Georgia - Mamma 'Taint Long 'Fore Day (slide) - Blind Willie McTell
Georgia -  Georgia Rag - Willie McTell (non-slide)
Memphis - Nehi Mama Blues  - Frank Stokes

Bu thousands would disagree with  me (justifiably)
Alex

PS: Waxy is right!

Offline jed

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 02:13:40 AM »
Going by type is the English-to-Latin way.  What about Latin-to-English?  For example, of what category is Minglewood Town the best example?  How about Molly Man?

Done this way, the focus goes to a song's uniqueness, which may be easier to discuss, enabling comparisons without having to declare styles.  Even so, it's normal to quantify songs' sounds by categorizing them geographically or otherwise - "That's more of a North Delta (or Texarkana) sound."  In fact, isn't that process what drove many of us to study and learn this stuff in the first place - "Where did this sound come from?" "Why do these songs have the same kind of [whatever]?"  One thing leads to another - we all followed the dirt road and ended up in Bentonia or wherever... 

And no, Ghostie, don't go starting to discuss which song is the best example of Songster style!

Cheers,
Jed
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Blind Dawg

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 12:13:03 AM »
No offense, BD, but I think for most folks here at Weenie it's gonna fall into the "don't care" column. Those style classifications were created by the record industry long after the fact and the players had no knowledge that what they were playing would be classified "Delta" or "Piedmont" or whatever 20 or 30 years later, so, to most of us here they seem uninteresting as a way to discuss the music.

Also, you'll find we tend to shy away from the purely subjective arguments about who's the best.... or in this case, what song is the best.... etc. Everybody has their own favorites, and that's fine, but we leave the heated arguments about who is right about which is best to some of the other forums.

Don't get me wrong, we still express lots of emotion over the great work of many of the individual artists, and we always get excited over finding the more obscure artists that we may not have heard much. It's just the polls and favorite picking that other forums seem to relish arguing judgmentally about that we stay away from here. (Not pointing any fingers)

Hope you understand where we're coming from. Mississippi Jailhouse Groan is a very cool tune. So are literally hundreds of songs created by other players in a similar style, mostly from around the broad, flat, cotton plantation dominated area between the Mississippi River and the Yazoo River.

Wax

[Edit] Of course somebody's gonna prove me wrong now by listing their choices for most exemplary song in every category they can think of, right? -G-


While I agree that the artists themselves weren't trying to play delta, Texas, Piedmont etc blues. We do have these guys coming from a specific area that did play a particular brand of blues. I'd say it's pretty save to say that the bottom artists listed do represent the region...

Delta

Charley Patton
Son House
Ishman Bracey


Memphis

Jim Jackson
Furry Lewis
Frank Stokes

St.Louis

Roosevelt Sykes
Peetie Wheatstraw
Lonnie Johnson


Texas

Blind Lemon Jefferson
Ramblin' Thomas
Texas Alexander

Alabama

Ed Bell
Jaybird Coleman
Boweavil Jackson

Georgia

Blind Willie McTell
Pegleg Howell
Barbecue Bob

Piedmont

Blind Blake
Pink Anderson
Blind Boy Fuller


As we know each of those regions has another 10 (at least) or so that are considered "Delta players" etc. That's if you go by what we've read in all those books on them old blues. While it might not be 100% accurate it's all we got so might as well go with it. King Solomon Hill, Oscar Woods and Jesse Thomas...Louisiana. Buddy Boy Hawkins-Arkansas. I don't see any reason to fight it or question it. If all I've read is wrong....oh well. The thing is you think St.Louis and it's not jug bands. You think Texas and it's not piano blues. Not that there weren't Texas piano players. You don't think Mississippi Delta and female piano players, yet there was at least one. I think gruff vocals and high percussion when I think of the delta blues. Piedmont blues we find more coherent vocals and complex guitar work. Memphis is where we find the jug bands, not that we didn't see jug bands in other areas.

Not looking to argue or even debate just curious as to what others thought.

Blind Dawg

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 12:14:45 AM »
OK:

I'll disagree a bit. I think the ultimate delta blues is "Future Blues" by Willie Brown.
But I'll play the game:

St. Louis - Cairo Blues - Spaulding
Piedmont - Diddie Wa Diddie - Blind Blake
Georgia - Mamma 'Taint Long 'Fore Day (slide) - Blind Willie McTell
Georgia -  Georgia Rag - Willie McTell (non-slide)
Memphis - Nehi Mama Blues  - Frank Stokes

Bu thousands would disagree with  me (justifiably)
Alex

PS: Waxy is right!


Good stuff ;D So was Willie Brown and Kid Bailey one and the same?

Offline dj

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2009, 03:58:11 AM »
Quote
You think Texas and it's not piano blues.

I think that represents more the guitar-centric interests of the post-1960 blues fan and the huge importance and popularity of Blind Lemon Jefferson and Leadbelly than what was actually recorded, especially in the early days.  Without too much strain, I can think of the following Texas pianists:  Alex Moore, Big Boy Knox, Black Boy Shine, Black Ivory King, Curtis Jones, Hersal Thomas, Kitty Gray, Pinetop Burks, Son Becky, and Andy Boy.  I know I've missed some.  And that's just pre-war.  Post 1945 you get Amos Milburn, Floyd Dixon, etc.

I don't know if it was chance, or where the field units of the major companies chose to record, or actual distribution of players, but there were sure a lot of Texas pianists that recorded.

When it comes to the blues, Texas had it all.

   

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 04:35:18 AM »
Quote
You think Texas and it's not piano blues.
Somebody in Britain was certainly thinking Texas piano blues. Between 1977 & 79 Magpie released iat least three compilations with titles such as Dallas, Texas Santa Fe and Texas Seaport. See here for futher details  :)
http://www.wirz.de/music/magpifrm.htm

Offline GhostRider

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 06:39:05 AM »

Offline Parlor Picker

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 07:11:19 AM »
"I ain't good looking, teeth don't shine like pearls,
So glad good looks don't take you through this world."
Barbecue Bob

Offline Johnm

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 08:36:25 AM »
Hi all,
I don't think of Blind Blake as being Piedmont Blues at all.  As far as I know there's no evidence that he was from or ever resided in the Piedmont.  I think of him as an early Chicago blues musician who, for the most part, influenced other musicians via his recordings.  I think of Piedmont Blues (over-simplified) as the music in the Carolinas that influenced Blind Boy Fuller, then Blind Boy Fuller, then the music that was influenced by Blind Boy Fuller.  That having been said, there's plenty of music that came out of the Piedmont, like that of Virgil Childers, that doesn't appear to bear any obvious relationship to Fullers' music at all.  

I question the efficacy of trying to draw musical conclusions as to what was archetypal of a particular style based on where people came from; where people came from is interesting, but mostly for its own sake.  If you try to make musical inferences based on where people came from you end up spending all your time trying to explain away the exceptions to the supposedly archetypal sound.  But to return to the original issue cited, I think of Blind Blake, who supposedly came from Florida as no more a Florida musician than I think of Tampa Red as a Florida musician.  I think they were early musical professionals who developed their sounds independent of any regional style of playing that we have access to at this time.
All best,
Johnm  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 08:38:04 AM by Johnm »

Offline dj

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 11:02:34 AM »
Quote
Between 1977 & 79 Magpie released at least three compilations with titles such as Dallas, Texas Santa Fe and Texas Seaport.

A little off-topic, but it bears saying here that those Magpie piano blues compilations were really wonderful.  I guess they've been superseded in this digital era by various Document CDs, (Piano Blues volumes 1 - 6, Texas Piano volumes 1 & 2, etc) which are also wonderful in their own slightly different way.  As a fairly late convert to the worthiness of piano blues (I spent the first 30 years after my discovery of the blues listening 90 percent of the time to guitar and harmonica players), I guess I feel I have to put in a word for the genre whenever it comes up.   

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 11:17:56 AM »
A little off-topic, but it bears saying here that those Magpie piano blues compilations were really wonderful.
The 78s used all came from Francis Smith's amazing piano blues collection and the LPs were mastered by John R T Davis. Add to that the literate and informative sleeve notes and in their day made for an absolute "must have" and go broke!

Offline Johnm

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 02:12:25 PM »
Hi all,
I have the same problem with Lonnie Johnson being used as characterizing St. Louis blues as I do with Blake being used to characterize Piedmont Blues--rather than exemplifying the characteristics of the style's sound, Lonnie Johnson stands apart from them.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 03:04:13 PM »
Quote
If you try to make musical inferences based on where people came from you end up spending all your time trying to explain away the exceptions to the supposedly archetypal sound.

Good point John.
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Offline lindy

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 03:58:25 PM »
Amazing how these categories get made. I've always heard Blind Blake described as an "East Coast bluesman," but I don't associate him with any east coast location except north Florida and Georgia, and it seems like he left those places at a very young age. From what little I know, he spent the vast majority of his life in Chicago, and passed through Ohio on the way there. Geographically speaking, that makes him an upper midwest blues musician, but the east coast label still prevails. Anyone who knows otherwise, please teach me.

Still, I'm wondering if it's possible to talk about the "sound" of a location pre-recordings. I should also add pre-radio and pre-mass migration. There was a time when people just didn't move around that much, and in our human tendency to categorize and build up our own good qualities, folks would say, "You know how those people from ______ country are" or "Man, those people from _______ town are really worthless, ain't they?", even though the counties or towns might only be 10 or 20 miles apart. It was possible to create a specific sound within those limitations, but it didn't take very long at all for recorded music to mix things up. So today I can't make the connection between Lonnie Johnson and St. Louis beyond knowing that he lived there.

Evidence in support of my idea: the "Bentonia sound" of Skip James / Jack Owens.

Evidence to refute it: Mississippi John Hurt's use of alternating thumb while living in the heart of the Delta, which as far as I know, wasn't the norm near Greenwood, Mississippi.

Can't really prove my point because of the lack of recordings from 1860-1920 or thereabouts, but here and there you can find snippets of evidence from people who played in isolation in their communities without ever thinking of becoming recording musicians, then being "discovered" late in life.

Just watched a film on the connection between Sierra Leone and the Gullah people of the Georgia Sea Islands last night, http://www.folkstreams.net/film,166, I think it has a lot to say about how music and other aspects of culture could be preserved within very narrow geographic confines in this country.

Lindy
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 04:00:21 PM by lindy »

Offline waxwing

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 04:35:30 PM »
I think, if you had those pre 1920 recordings you're talking about Lindy, you might have to narrow the regions down quite a bit. "Delta", "Texas", "Piedmont", these are just way too large and therefore somewhat meaningless, except maybe as categories in a record store for the uninitiated. David Evans wrote a whole book about Drew Mississippi. Even the Atlanta, Georgia (is that Piedmont?) 12 string players had different "schools" of sound.

And, hey, according to my ears Charley Patton used the occasional alternating bass. So is he "Piedmont" when he does and "Delta" when he doesn't?

Wax
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Offline lindy

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 04:56:46 PM »
Agreed, Wax, that was the point I was trying to make, the categories would have to be a lot more narrow, as in Bentonia versus Itta Bena instead of Memphis vs. St Louis or Piedmont vs. Delta. I must not have stated my idea clearly.

Good point on Charley Patton. Skip James also played songs with alternating thumb, meaning that alternating thumb can't be used as the sole categorical divider/delimiter. Somebody please call an ethnomusicologist to write a dissertation, in plain English if possible. I still think that in the decades before recorded music, a mythical researcher of the blues would have been able to find clear distinctions between towns/counties (even ones that were very close to each other) that were indicative of a very localized "sound".

Depending on which Georgia musicians you're referring to, they may have had a lot of opportunities to listen to recorded music, or they may have brought their local sounds from smaller Georgia towns to Atlanta street corners, where they got thrown into the pot and stirred before they got recorded. Pure speculation in the absence of evidence.

Lindy


« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:09:03 PM by lindy »

Offline frankie

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 05:02:05 PM »
why is it important to identify regional sounds?

Offline Stuart

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »
Responding to Frankie's question, I don't think that it is important as  much as it is interesting--to some of us, anyway.

I also think that Lindy has a good point--when there was a fair degree of relative isolation and independence between individuals and groups, opportunities for influence (one way or mutual) were probably less than when there was a greater degree of interaction.

The impression one gets from being exposed to the material in common circulation (long after the fact) and the conclusions one would arrive at after doing an in depth analysis would probably be quite different. I'm a "what really happened and why" kind of guy. But even when we know that there is a direct line of transmission from one musician to another, the results are often not easy to predict.

Offline Johnm

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 06:12:06 PM »
Hi all,
In response to Frankie's query, I would say that we don't have the information needed to generalize about regional styles in any meaningful way at this time anyhow.  Access to sound recordings eliminated the great majority of even the micro-regional styles quite a long time ago.  And I'm dubious as to whether anyone is currently alive who pre-dates the recording era and who can describe or play the music that was made in a given locale back then in the kind of detail that would put the sound of that music in our ears.
Blind Boy Fuller's sound was hugely influenced by recordings, every bit as much as was Robert Johnson's.  There's a tendency to think that learning from records originated in the '60s--not so.  People started copping stuff from records as soon as records started being made.  There are recordings from '27 and '28 where people are already trying to copy Lonnie Johnson and Lemon.  And if you think of more or less current Piedmont players like John Dee Holman (thank God still current) and Guitar Shorty, each plays or played both repertoire and styles that didn't derive from their locale at all.  And you know what?  It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference as to what I want to hear.  I'd feel idiotic saying I like hearing John Dee Holman do a Fuller song but don't want to hear him play a Lightnin' Hopkins song because Lightnin' was from Texas.  We can't put everything back in the bottle at this point. 
All best,
Johnm

Offline unezrider

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 10:53:00 PM »
hello friend,
when i first started getting into this music around '94, '95, when i was 17, or 18 years old, one of the first things i was taken by, aside from how the music really hit home with me, was the vast variety all within one supposed genre. & the quality of it all too. & i don't know if it was from reading liner notes, music books, my ears, or all the above, i noticed how music from different regions seemed to be distinct from one another. & for awhile i really paid this much mind. upon reflection though, listening to this kind of music for the first time must have been something to someone used to the more homogenized sounds coming from classic rock radio & mtv. (nirvana & pearl jam were big then). ( i grew up with those dreadful 'hair bands', too  :-X) i had no idea something so vast could have ever existed! hell, from all accounts i had come across to that point, jimi hendrix invented quality guitar playing. it really was a small world i was coming from.
but as the years rolled on, & the more i thought i had this regional thing figured out, there would be another player from such & such region i'd come across who didn't fit that description. ok, so mississippi john hurt was from mississippi, but the rest of those guys? but then there was bo carter, robert wilkins? & don't even get me started on texas ? lemon, funny papa smith, mance, lead belly, lightnin', all the way down to t?bone. & it occurred to me it really doesn't matter. theres nothing wrong with contemplating these things. i spent many years doing it myself! & yes, i learned a lot about those players too. but big bill didn't play like patton. skip james didn't play like?well, anybody. tommy johnson had his own thing. it was the music i loved. but where so & so was from became less important to me the deeper i got into it.
i encourage anyone on this journey. the music is it's own reward. & in the end, it is the music itself that matters. besides, i think it was in wald's 'escaping the delta' book were he mentions how much influence a record company talent scout had on what kind of music (or namely what kind of players) was to be recorded at any given session. which is another bag of worms itself. but food for thought, none the less.
chris
"Be good, & you will be lonesome." -Mark Twain

Offline unezrider

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 11:29:11 PM »
it just occurred to me too ? if every area had it's "sound", wouldn't it stand to reason piano players from said area would share same musical feels & ideas (& limitations) as that area's guitarists? these people did associate with one another.
"Be good, & you will be lonesome." -Mark Twain

Offline dj

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2009, 03:32:59 AM »
Quote
why is it important to identify regional sounds?

It's not important in the vast scheme of the universe.  But it's human nature to sort and categorize things to make the world understandable.  We all carry bunches of ill-defined lists and charts around in our heads and add and subtract to them all the time.

Categories like regions and styles are useful especially to help a newcomer gain easier understanding of a mass of information, and "regional sounds" certainly once helped me sort through and make sense of the music I was listening to.  As we become more familiar with the music, we tend to see regions in terms of richness and variety rather than narrowly defined styles.  But that narrow definition is fine, and probably indispensable, as an aid to comprehension for the beginner.



 

Blind Dawg

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2009, 11:48:49 AM »
why is it important to identify regional sounds?

Every book seems to break it down into regions. I have CD's dedicated to them Texas, Georgia, St.Louis etc etc  blues. So it appears that's how it's done. I personally perfer to do it that way when I'm mixing a CD using material from other CD's. It seems to make sense to me. Roosevelt Sykes just after Walter Davis and before Hi Henry Brown sure sounds a lot better than Sykes then Bessie Tucker then Skip James.


Blind Dawg

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2009, 11:53:35 AM »
Hi all,
I don't think of Blind Blake as being Piedmont Blues at all.  As far as I know there's no evidence that he was from or ever resided in the Piedmont.  I think of him as an early Chicago blues musician who, for the most part, influenced other musicians via his recordings.  I think of Piedmont Blues (over-simplified) as the music in the Carolinas that influenced Blind Boy Fuller, then Blind Boy Fuller, then the music that was influenced by Blind Boy Fuller.  That having been said, there's plenty of music that came out of the Piedmont, like that of Virgil Childers, that doesn't appear to bear any obvious relationship to Fullers' music at all.  

I question the efficacy of trying to draw musical conclusions as to what was archetypal of a particular style based on where people came from; where people came from is interesting, but mostly for its own sake.  If you try to make musical inferences based on where people came from you end up spending all your time trying to explain away the exceptions to the supposedly archetypal sound.  But to return to the original issue cited, I think of Blind Blake, who supposedly came from Florida as no more a Florida musician than I think of Tampa Red as a Florida musician.  I think they were early musical professionals who developed their sounds independent of any regional style of playing that we have access to at this time.
All best,
Johnm  





Anytime I read anything about Blake it usually mentions him as a Piedmont player. Example....


His first recordings were made in 1926 and his records sold very well. His first solo record was "Early Morning Blues" with "West Coast Blues" on the B-side. Both are considered excellent examples of his ragtime-based guitar style and are prototypes for the burgeoning Piedmont blues. Blake made his last recordings in 1932, the end of his career aided by Paramount's bankruptcy. It is often said that the later recordings have much less sparkle.


I hear ya and knew about his Florida/Georgia roots. Hmmmmm?

Offline dj

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2009, 01:15:25 PM »
Quote
Every book seems to break it down into regions.

Well, you've got to organize things somehow.  But as John M. and a few others have said here, geographic proximity, whether at birth or when recording, doesn't necessarily equate to stylistic proximity.  It may, but it ain't necessarily so. 

As for Blake, all the biographical information we have about him from the period before he started recording is contained in a few sentences in a Paramount ad and some internal evidence on "Southern Rag", where Blake does a Gullah accent native to the Georgia Sea Islands.  The accent may or may not mean anything, the Paramount add may be based on a quick interview with Blake or it may be complete fabrication, and we'll probably never know exactly where Blake learned to play guitar.  But hey, you've got to stick him somewhere.   

Offline Stuart

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2009, 01:18:08 PM »
Is it or is it not the case that the music made by individuals associated with a specific geographic region is the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes or defines (a) regional sound(s)?

Offline waxwing

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2009, 02:07:50 PM »
I still don't see much value beyond that of a beginner needing to organize a lot of names, to which they still don't associate the recordings, as an aid towards remembering them, or perhaps when addressing an audience with little deep knowledge of the music. Once someone "knows" a player and his or her music, one can make one's own determination as to what you think their influences were. Labeling them with some regionalism is not a short cut to knowing their music. Quoting some book, which of course is designed to appeal to the broadest range of readers, specifically including newbies, only shows what association that writer makes given their own criteria. I doubt we at Weenie have the capability to decide decisively what any of these regional definitions really defines, every writer seems to have their own set, so I sure hope we're not going to try.

But the idea that one song could "sum up" the entire panoply and variety of music from any of these regions, large or small, over many years is, well, ludicrous. Sorry.

We seem to be getting deep into discussion about discussion here, the dreaded "metadiscussion". I'm sorry if my original post, designed to do just the opposite, started us on that path. Suffice to say, there have been no other lists of exemplary songs posted since Ghosty's TIC offering, so I'm going to conclude that most here agree with my statement that we don't really care to do so? Knowing the individuals by their own music and being able to discover the influences of other individual players is far more rewarding and, as has been pointed out, can be obscured by reliance on generalizations.

Wax
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Offline uncle bud

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2009, 03:11:08 PM »
I think the answer is yes and no.

There is a little value in categorizing. If I refer to a St. Louis sound -- that one can hear to varying degrees in Charley Jordan, Henry Spaulding, Henry Townsend, Peetie Wheatstraw, J.D. Short -- some people will know what I'm talking about, and yes, compilations can be organized around them.

I'd never have thought myself to include Lonnie Johnson in either that group or as representative of an alternative St. Louis sound. But then if you listen to the musicians on Document's St. Louis 1927-33 DOCD-5181, you don't hear much of that "St. Louis sound", aside from a couple tracks where the above musicians show up. You do actually hear some Lonnie Johnson style, and not just because he's involved on some tracks. Bert "Snake Root" Hatton sings like Lonnie, and Jimmy Strange even moreso. 

St. Louis pianists shake this view up even more.

So, my first categorization of those familiar St. Louis guitarists (and Peetie) doesn't really stand up to an in depth look at St. Louis. Yet it is still useful as a shorthand. "Sounds like those St. Louis guys..." etc. Most here will know what I mean by that.

 

Offline Stuart

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2009, 04:15:58 PM »
There's the subtext of the non-subtext to my (hopefully not deceptively) simple question. In other words, I'm with Johnm and John C on this one. Since it's ultimately about the music--listening to and/or playing it, why not go straight to and focus on the music? It can be fun to talk about similarities and differences between players and/or regions, but it's not for everyone. If one would rather just listen to and/or play music, that's fine as well.

Offline doctorpep

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2009, 03:36:32 AM »
The more I listen to "Country Blues", the more I realize how often Memphis Minnie would play in an urban area (and Henry Townsend, too). I also realize that the urbane Leroy Carr sang verses that the "crudest" of the backwoods Country Bluesmen sang. I also see the lyrics to "In The Pines/Black Girl" pop up in Leadbelly and Bascom Lamar Lunsford songs, and I hear 80 million versions of "John Henry", "Frankie & Johnny" and "Betty & Dupree" done by every black and white rural musician to have ever lived. The other day, I was listening to a black Rhythm & Blues artist do a lyric-for-lyric version of a Bo Weavil Jackson song; I'm sorry I can't remember who it was that was doing the song.

Robert Johnson was a "Polka Hound", Johnny Shines enjoyed working with David Bromberg (a then-young Jewish man who had a completely different life than Johnny did) as opposed to recording alone. John Hurt thought that Uncle Dave Macon was white.

Countless black and white musicians from the '20s and '30s seem to have known "Get Along Home, Cindy" or "Whoop 'Em Up, Cindy" or "Cindy". Blind Lemon Jefferson was inspired by Mexican Flamenco guitarists.

I could go on and on, but these are just some reasons why classifying types of Blues is really silly. All I know is that there is Gutbucket Blues (which doesn't mean the music has to be simple, but just heartfelt and thought-provoking) and there is bastardized cheezy, Blues-Rock stuff.
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Offline dj

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2009, 08:59:51 AM »
When this thread started, I didn't think it would be very interesting.  But it's morphed into something that's made me think a lot in the last couple of days.

Why are "all the books" organized by region?  My original glib answer was that they have to be organized somehow, and by region is an easy and obvious organizational choice.  But after literally hours of thought (you know you're really a weenie when... you think about stuff like this for hours), it dawned on me that the reason everything is organized by region is that the first books on the blues, and the first LP releases, were organized that way.  And why was that?  Because the authors and compilers thought of country blues as folk music, and the study of folk music is concerned with regional styles, whether the region in question is a village, a city, a county, a state, a multi-state grouping, or a country.  Once the regional concept had been used several times by folklorists, it became set in stone - the unconscious way that most people who thought about country blues used to organize their thoughts on the subject.  Which brings up the question: are there other and better ways ot organize a presentation of the subject?

This realization led to another: You never see the "classic" female blues singers organized by region.  Why?  Because everyone assumes that they weren't folk artists, but rather pop singers working in a more universal style.  (You never hear Bing Crosby referred to as an exponent of the "Washington state school of crooning", do you?)  A lot of the issues of regional style that have been mentioned in this thread are due to the fact that the people who we consider "country blues singers" include some people who could very much be considered representatives of a folk tradition (Mississippi John Hurt Mance Lipscomb, and Washington Phillips would be good examples), some people who were polished professional entertainers who recorded in a "folk blues" style because that's what the record companies thought would sell best (Lonnie Johnson, Blind Blake, Papa Charlie Jackson, Leroy Carr, Georgia White), and a lot of people who fall somewhere in the middle.  A lot of the confusion about "regional styles" comes from the fact that just about any region you can name includes the whole gamut of folk, semi-professional and professional musicians (for want of better terms).  In other words, there were some musicians recorded who were primarily on the folk or semi-pro side of things, who were minimally influenced by recordings at the time when they were recorded, and whose work does fit into some "regional style".  The styles these musicians represent are interesting, at least to me, in that they may be able to give us information of the origin and spread of styles and techniques.  But there are other people, the "non-folk" musicians, who just can't be crammed into that regional style thing, and who only muddy the waters when they are.

If you've made it this far in a very long post, thanks for your patience!       

Offline Stuart

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2009, 09:26:10 AM »
This may be a modern, American manifestation of a human phenomenon. As some of you know, in my other life, I do Chinese Language and Lit. The earliest (we're talking B.C.E.) anthology of Chinese poetry, The Book of Songs, (the assumption is that they were sung, or at least chanted) has it's first fifteen sections arranged by region. There are even a few comments about regional styles by others who commented on the texts. And the earliest biographies (again B.C.E.) almost always contain info about a person's native place. I think that it just might be the way us humans think about about the identity of a person, a musician, or the music they make. So maybe the question should be, "Why shouldn't regional or geographical information be given when fleshing out the background of a musician or music?"

Our own Johnm has just released a couple of instructional DVDs, "Texas Blues Guitar" and "Memphis Blues Guitar." I'll let John speak for himself about this, but I think that the identity aspect is obvious. Place as well as time are important.

Offline jed

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2009, 12:35:22 PM »
...manifestation of a human phenomenon.
Quote
...might be the way us humans think about about the identity of a person, a musician, or the music they make. So maybe the question should be, "Why shouldn't regional or geographical information be given when fleshing out the background of a musician or music?"

That nail must feel complete right now, because Stuart hit it squarely on its head.  The harder new things are to quantify, the more we try to quantify them.  As we become more familiar with them, we can rely less on their wrappers (the 'where/who/when') and more on their - forgive the modern term - content (the 'what,' and the 'why' if we're curious). 

When we go further and deeper into the 'what,' its details - rhythms, picking, voicings, phrasings, can become endlessly interesting; musical discoveries quickly begin to overshadow the applied labels; it's the "Aha - so that's where he got this or that" syndrome. 

In one sense, it's a technical icing on the cake that is the music; in another, it helps us link one artist's spirit to another.  Once the emotional impact of piece is digested and familiar, this 'why' is part of the enjoyment.  I like it. 

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Offline Alexei McDonald

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2009, 03:50:01 AM »
Why are "all the books" organized by region?  My original glib answer was that they have to be organized somehow, and by region is an easy and obvious organizational choice.  But after literally hours of thought (you know you're really a weenie when... you think about stuff like this for hours), it dawned on me that the reason everything is organized by region is that the first books on the blues, and the first LP releases, were organized that way.  And why was that?  Because the authors and compilers thought of country blues as folk music, and the study of folk music is concerned with regional styles, whether the region in question is a village, a city, a county, a state, a multi-state grouping, or a country.

That's not quite it, I think.   You need to go one step further along this line of thought and ask why the ethnomusicologists did things this way.   Very few of them had the same kind of resources as the Lomaxes and so great trips ranging over the whole country were not possible, which in turn led to studies of folk song and song collecting expeditions being more or less focussed on relatively small areas geographically and/or upon very limited topics (such as collecting all the versions of Barbara Allen or John Henry you came across to the exclusion of all other material).

In other words, the early authors and compilers approached the subject as they would any other academic discipline and so this is the prism through which we are often tempted to view and categorise older musical styles.   I don't think it's a problem as long as we bear in mind that we're dealing with a construct and that things were really a lot more complex than we are sometimes led to believe.


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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 07:46:54 AM »
I still don't see much value beyond that of a beginner needing to organize a lot of names, to which they still don't associate the recordings, as an aid towards remembering them, or perhaps when addressing an audience with little deep knowledge of the music. Once someone "knows" a player and his or her music, one can make one's own determination as to what you think their influences were. Labeling them with some regionalism is not a short cut to knowing their music. Quoting some book, which of course is designed to appeal to the broadest range of readers, specifically including newbies, only shows what association that writer makes given their own criteria. I doubt we at Weenie have the capability to decide decisively what any of these regional definitions really defines, every writer seems to have their own set, so I sure hope we're not going to try.

But the idea that one song could "sum up" the entire panoply and variety of music from any of these regions, large or small, over many years is, well, ludicrous. Sorry.

We seem to be getting deep into discussion about discussion here, the dreaded "metadiscussion". I'm sorry if my original post, designed to do just the opposite, started us on that path. Suffice to say, there have been no other lists of exemplary songs posted since Ghosty's TIC offering, so I'm going to conclude that most here agree with my statement that we don't really care to do so? Knowing the individuals by their own music and being able to discover the influences of other individual players is far more rewarding and, as has been pointed out, can be obscured by reliance on generalizations.

Wax



Let's say I came on here and stated talking about them Mississippi Delta blues and mentioned Peetie Wheatstraw, Sleepy John Estes, Ramblin' Thomas, Bessie Smith and Papa Charley Jackson? How soon before somebody..."those weren't Delta players?" Now if I were talking Son House, Tommy Johnson, Ishman Bracey, Bukka White and Charley Patton no problem....right? See how it goes?

  A single tune trying to represent a brand of music? Obviously it's very subjective. That's why I asked 8)

Offline Rivers

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2009, 07:57:41 AM »
Complex or simple? Human nature wants to compartmentalize, sort, parse, categorize, relate. Music, as it's produced in the present, is what it is. As time advances and history kicks-in the major groups and styles emerge, and you've also got a bunch of crossovers. That's a discernible fact. So we learn to hold two or more diverging facts at the same time.

Which leads to the study of outliers and exceptions since it can throw some light. A list of "The greatest [examples of style X]" is a bit too one dimensional and makes orphans out of all the people who were outside the defining regional style.

50 years from now will a website devoted to early British R&B be assigning the Stones to "The Dartford style"? Probably. And it's absurd of course. I like the quote that pops up on here now and again, "People say, 'Skip James was a Delta musician'. That's like saying Chopin was a southern German piano player"

Offline Rivers

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2009, 08:21:31 AM »
Quote
John Hurt thought that Uncle Dave Macon was white

Which just goes to prove John Hurt wasn't color blind. :D

Offline jed

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2009, 10:00:26 AM »
What?!? MJH wasn't color-blind?

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Offline samjessin

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2009, 11:10:46 AM »
I think the fellow who wasn't color blind was Uncle Dave himself.
 O0


Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2009, 05:13:55 PM »
 I'm too enamored of taxonomy to give it up entirely, and it does have its uses, trivial as they may ultimately be. Plus those categories, as employed by Sam Charters, Jed Pearl and Richard Nevins and others is how I learned much of this music. I like JohnM's idea of Blake being an urban musician though. That IS a useful category it seems to me and one that comfortably accommodates Big Bill, Memphis Minnie, maybe the whole Bluebird roster.
I imagine that from an anthropologists perspective, being able to ascribe local traits from which its possible to work backwards towards identifying African sources would be an important tool. It could also be useful in reconstructing population movement through stylistic influences, though the advent of recordings and radio makes that a somewhat more difficult project. A friend of mine in Maine constructed a map of depleted fish species' historical migratory patterns, pre population collapse, through interviewing old fishermen, however so you never know.
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Offline Stuart

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2009, 07:54:47 PM »
...I imagine that from an anthropologists perspective, being able to ascribe local traits from which its possible to work backwards towards identifying African sources would be an important tool. It could also be useful in reconstructing population movement through stylistic influences, though the advent of recordings and radio makes that a somewhat more difficult project...

A while back we mentioned Gerhard Kubik's, "Bourdon, Blue Notes, and Pentatonism in the Blues: An Africanist Perspective," which is in David Evans' Ramblin' On My Mind: New Perspectives on the Blues. You might give it a look. Here's the WC link:

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=4970.0

This thread began with a discussion re: whether or not there are distinguishing features of the various "regional sounds." I'm still trying to think through how this would ultimately be determined--if it were indeed possible. One of these years...

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: If there was one song....
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2009, 02:11:40 AM »
Interesting. Thanks Stuart. Fellow prisoners of academe it seems to me. ;)
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
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