In 2012 I made a pilgrimage to Oxford, Mississippi, to interview Dick Waterman, who booked gigs and oversaw the careers of a who's-who of blues artists in the 1960s and '70s. Our conversation focused on Mississippi John Hurt and Son House. In his discussion of Son, Dick provided insight into what happened when Son met legendary Columbia Record producer John Hammond. Here's the exchange:
Were you the man who took Son House up to meet John Hammond at Columbia Records?Sure, absolutely.
Will you tell me about that?What happened was after I found Son, the assumption was we were going to go to Delmark, which was in business then, or Chris Strachwitz had Arhoolie, which was also in business at that time. But I figured John Hammond had been instrumental in putting out the first Robert Johnson album,
King of the Delta Blues Singers, which had come out about ’62. So his love for Robert Johnson was certainly well known. So if Robert was dead, why not Robert’s mentor? Why not? My feeling was, try for the highest, and if you fail, you could fail down to two or five or eight or ten others. You’ve always got Arhoolie and Delmark waiting for you if all else fails. So I went to Columbia first. Now, Columbia at that point was the biggest, most widely distributed record label in the world, whether it was Johnny Mathis, Eddy Arnold – they were the biggest, most widely distributed label in the world. So I contacted John Hammond, and he said, “Oh, definitely. Absolutely. Definitely. Yes, we want him.” So April of ’65 – I think April 12, 13, 14, three days – we were in New York.
So we were in John Hammond’s office, and there was never a matter of money or things like that. We wanted Columbia. We were sitting in the office and he came in. Shook hands, got behind the desk, and just started: “You don’t know how excited I am! What a thrill this is! You know, in 1938 I put on the Spirituals to Swing concert at Carnegie Hall, and I sent word down that I wanted Robert Johnson. Robert Johnson at Carnegie Hall – can you imagine that? Count Basie, Hot Lips Page, and all those great . . . . Can you imagine what it would have been like to have Robert Johnson? Ah.”
And I look at Son, and Son has crossed one leg over the other. He’s reached for a cigarette, and he’s looking out the window at New Jersey. And I know he’s out of this conversation. He’s just left. And John talked about Robert – Robert being dead, and the word coming back that Robert was dead, and how much he really wanted to sign Robert Johnson and found out he was dead. So I looked at Son, and Son just wasn’t even in the room, anyway. John didn’t show any signs of slowing down, so I said, “Mr. Hammond?” “Yes, Yes?” I said, “You know that Son was the mentor, and Robert was the protégé. So Son really doesn’t have any real concept of how Robert has become really well known over the years. Son has been a great musician with his own talent, and I think we should address that. Let’s talk about that.” And he looked at me and he went, “Oh, oh. Yes, of course! Of course! Son, we’re just so pleased to have you here, I can’t tell you how happy we are to have you,” blah, blah, blah. But he was really ready to talk about Robert for a long period of time.
Son never really saw a great Robert Johnson with a great career, if, in fact, he had one. He recorded twice – ’36, ’37 – and then died the following year, ’38. So it’s not like he had a long career, but there were successful people at that time. Lonnie Johnson, long career. Leroy Carr and Scrapper Blackwell – long career. Robert kind of flashed across, made two wonderful albums, and then died.
Did you two go to a bar right afterward and you said, “Here’s to signing with Columbia”?Yeah, that happened. We went downstairs. I’m not much of a drinker. I had a beer, and Son had a double bourbon, double Jack Daniels – hold the ice. So I said, “Here’s to John Hammond, for signing to Columbia.” And Son picked up his glass and said, “Here’s to Robert Johnson, for being dead.”
If you're interested in reading more of Dick's unique insights and memorable anecdotes about Son House, Mississippi John Hurt, Muddy Waters, and others, I've posted a transcription here:
https://jasobrecht.substack.com/p/backstage-with-mississippi-john-hurt
