Topic: Blind Willie McTell's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[uncle bud]

My Baby's Gone and B&O both sound to me to be played out of G position, standard tuning, but I can see how some of the licks can be played in either tuning/position.

Going back and listening, I think you're right. What fooled me is just how far down he's tuned -- My Baby's Gone is all the way down to C, IIRC. I got a bee in my bonnet a couple of nights ago and went through the first 3 CDs of the JSP set and wrote down the position and absolute key of each piece -- I'll try to post that on here tomorrow, because there are a few that will prompt some discussion, methinks. The really hard part is trying to figure out what position Curley Weaver's playing out of -- on a few of the tunes he's almost inaudible, and on the ones where you can hear him what he's doing dovetails so nicely with McTell's playing it's often hard to tell.

I've listened to these songs for years, but never sat down and figured out the actual keys for so many of them. I was surprised how far down McTell tunes; he's down just three frets or so (or less) until the Broke Down Engine session, and after that he really cranks the strings down. Makes me wonder if he got tired of wearing out guitars.
Chris

Chris, that would be great if you posted the work you did with the JSP set. I'm looking forward to it! I agree about Curley Weaver. Some of the stuff is really seamless and a real strain to decide who's doing what.

[Buzz]

Interesting thread, gents. Thorough ivestigative reporting!

A friend visiting from New Orleans gave me a burned CD of his he had made for his trip out here, of Blind Willie Johson and Blind Willie McTell. I haven't played my old LP of Atlanta 12 String in years. Then, at camp last summer, JohnC blew me out of the water with his practiced and sound technical skill on his beautiful Sovereign playing BWM's tunes. Got me interested  in BWM, so this thread is cool. I will have to find some good CDs of his stuff , so I can folllow your lines of thought. I  too would like to see the listing from Chris.
Ciao!
Miller

[banjochris]

As Fiddlin' John Carson would say, "Look out, now here she comes..."

Title is followed by playing position, then actual key, then Curley Weaver's playing position, if applicable. + means that it's sharp of this key, but less than a fret. I used semicolons so you can easily do a find and replace with tabs.

6-string guitar
Writin' Paper Blues; E; D+
Stole Rider Blues; drop D; C+
Mama T'ain't Long Fo' Day; spanish; F#
Mr. McTell Got the Blues; C; B-flat+
Mr. McTell Got the Blues; C; B-flat

12-string guitar
Three Women Blues; vestapol; E-flat
Dark Night Blues; C; B
Statesboro Blues; drop D; C#+
Loving Talking Blues; G; F#
Atlanta Strut; C; B-flat
Travelin' Blues; vestapol; D
Come On Around to My House Mama; C; A
Kind Mama; C; A+
Teasing Brown; C; B-flat
Drive Away Blues; E; C#
This Is Not the Stove to Brown Your Bread; C; A
Love Changing Blues; spanish; E
Talkin' to Myself; E; C#
Razor Ball; C; A+
Southern Can Is Mine; C; A-flat
Broke Down Engine Blues; E; C
Stomp Down Rider; G; E
Scarey Day Blues; E; C#
Rough Alley Blues; E; C#
Experience Blues; vestapol; C
Painful Blues; C; A

here's where the fun starts as Curley Weaver joins in:
Low Rider's Blues; C; A-flat; spanish
Georgia Rag; C; A-flat+

these two may cause some argument:
Low Down Blues; spanish, E-flat; vestapol
Rollin' Mama Blues; spanish; C#; vestapol

Along with You Was Born to Die, McTell could be playing these 2 tunes in G standard, but I think he's probably in Spanish, and here's why. First, he constantly plays a thumb stroke that's a slide on the fifth string leading up to the open 4th string. He doesn't do this in any of the G standard tunes, but does it in vestapol in Experience Blues and Savannah Mama, which suggests he's in an open tuning. Second, he constantly walks up to the third of the IV chord, not playing the root in the bass (this would be walking up to the E note of a C chord -- if we're talking playing position, not keys); this would make sense in spanish to play the IV without barring. Third, his V chord is even more abbreviated than normal; usually in G standard he plays a brief D chord and the third is audible on the top, and I don't hear that here. Maybe someone else will hear this differently or can decide definitively.

Lonesome Day Blues; C; F#; spanish
Mama, Let Me Scoop For You; G; D
Searching the Desert for the Blues; E; C
Warm It Up to Me; C; A-flat; G
It's Your Time to Worry; G; D+; vestapol
It's a Good Little Thing; G; E-flat; vestapol
You Was Born to Die; spanish; D; vestapol
Lord Have Mercy If You Please; spanish; D; E

here's a really weird one; it sounds like Weaver's tuned down as far as McTell:
Don't You See How This World Made a Change; vestapol; B; E

Savannah Mama; vestapol; A
Broke Down Engine; E; A+
Broke Down Engine No. 2; E; A+
My Baby's Gone; G; C
Love-Makin' Mama; C; F; G
Death Room Blues; C; F+; G
Death Cell Blues; G; D+; E
Lord, Send Me an Angel; E; A; C
B and O Blues No. 2; G; C#+; E
B and O Blues No. 2; G; C#+; E
Weary Hearted Blues; A; E-flat; E
Bell Street Lightnin'; C; F#; G
Southern Can Mama; C; F#; almost inaudible, likely G
Runnin' Me Crazy; E; B-flat; C
East St. Louis Blues (Fare You Well); E; B-flat; C
Ain't It Grand to Be a Christian; vestapol; A-flat
We Got to Meet Death One Day; vestapol; B
We Got to Meet Death One Day; vestapol; B
Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around; vestapol; B+
I Got Religion, I'm So Glad; vestapol; A-flat
Dying Gambler; vestapol; F#+
God Don't Like It; vestapol; G
Bell Street Blues; C; F#; E
Let Me Play With Yo' Yo-Yo; C; F#; G
Lay Some Flowers On My Grave; C; F; G
Ticket Agent Blues; E; A-flat+

Cold Winter Day; vestapol?; B; vestapol
It's really hard for me to tell who's doing what on this one. I'm fairly certain the slide guitar is Curley Weaver on six-string, but McTell's guitar seems really under-recorded and Weaver is playing a lot of bass notes along with the slide lead. The chord voicing sound similar to me on each guitar, which is why I put vestapol for McTell. BTW, I think this is one of their best sides as a duet.

Your Time to Worry; G; C
Cooling Board Blues; E; A; A
Hillbilly Willie's Blues; C; F

This weekend I'll do the LoC and later stuff. Some of the playing positions for Curley Weaver are educated guesses, so if someone has better ears than I hopefully some more suggestions will come. I was surprised, listening really carefully, that for someone doing a duet with a 12-string he plays mostly bass runs, but it sure works. It would also be interesting for someone to compare the pitches on the JSP set to the Document or Yazoo. (I gave my Document set to my mom so it's not handy.)
Chris

[uncle bud]

Chris, that's great! A lot to chew on. Will report back if I have any alternative theories.  Thanks for posting this.

[frankie]

Nice work, Chris - I think I agree with most of your observations.  After listening a little this morning, I think I'm on the fence with a couple, but not the ones you thought were likely to be contentious.

It?s Your Time to Worry; G; D+; vestapol
It?s a Good Little Thing; G; E-flat; vestapol

Weaver's clearly in vestapol, but I'm not totally sure where McTell is - seems to me like he might be in spanish or standard, A position.  I need to listen to that some more.  The duets are a real challenge.

Thanks for posting this!

[Slack]

Welcome banjochris  - and thanks for this post!  Spectacular work.  We have similar posts on BLJ and Papa Charlie Jackson - we'll make a special archive for them one of these days and hopefully build a nice reference of  tunes by Key/postion and artist.

Cheers,
slack

[frankie]

One other weird thing about McTell - it seems to me that from the 1940's session on, he very often seems to use not only an octave third course, but an octave 2nd course.  I could be nuts, of course...

[frankie]

2nd course strung in octaves.

It's a totally loony thing to do, but it definitely matches what I hear in most of McTell's recordings from 1940 and later.  I don't think I hear it on any of his commercial recordings from the 20s and 30s.  Since I desperately need to change the strings on my 12 string, I figured I would just try an octave 2nd course, just for grins.  The first snippet is copped from McTell's 1956 recording of Baby, It Must Be Love.  The second from any one of his 1940 and later recordings of Kill It Kid Rag, but the one where I hear that voicing most clearly is on the 1940 LoC session.

Warning - please be tuned down to at least A (lower is better) before trying this!

[onewent]

...wow, Frank, that 12 sure sounds good tuned low like that ... I'd been messing around tuning my 12 to match BWM's and what a different voice the guitar takes on! ...I'm currently strung up w/ a light set, but am going heavier, but wanted to ask you what's on yours in this audio clip; or, if your 12 guages are listed in the 12-string thread, you can refer me to that ... you have a nice clarity and definition in your 12-string playing ...
I was playing mine last weekend tuned to about A-ish , and my daughter (college age) said, 'Dad, why are you playing out of tune?'

This is a great discussion topic and thanks, Chris, for all the BWM gruntwork on keys/playing position...

[uncle bud]

2nd course strung in octaves.

It's a totally loony thing to do, but it definitely matches what I hear in most of McTell's recordings from 1940 and later.? I don't think I hear it on any of his commercial recordings from the 20s and 30s.? Since I desperately need to change the strings on my 12 string, I figured I would just try an octave 2nd course, just for grins.? The first snippet is copped from McTell's 1956 recording of Baby, It Must Be Love.? The second from any one of his 1940 and later recordings of Kill It Kid Rag, but the one where I hear that voicing most clearly is on the 1940 LoC session.

Warning - please be tuned down to at least A (lower is better) before trying this!

That sounds really great, Frank. Nice ears on the Baby, It Must Be love intro. There's some wacky harmonic motion in there. So is the third course in octaves as well? What guages were you using for the octaves?

[frankie]

Here are the guages I'm using:

Course 1:? .013/.013
Course 2:? .012/.017
Course 3:? .013/.026
Course 4:? .017/.038
Course 5:? .022/.048
Course 6:? .026/.066

Everything is in octaves except the first course.? The .012 was the lightest I had for the octave on the 2nd course.? In general, if I were to stay tuned down this low, I think I would use heavier guages as it seems that would make everything keep its tune better.

For a long time, the sound that McTell got on his later recordings really nagged at me - the effect of the octave second course on me was to fool my ear into thinking everything was being played one string over - things that were in C I thought were in G, things in D I thought were A - because of that weird octave ringing out.? Then I'd go to work it out and there'd be bass notes that would be plain impossible in G or A.? I didn't even think it would be possible to get an octave on the 2nd string without 1) breaking *something* and 2) making everything sound like total crap.? I have a different perspective on it now that I've tried it, though.? It's a lousy setup if you're interested in Leadbelly, but for McTell, it really nails the sound, especially for those later recordings.

Thanks for the compliments, guys - I think I got something wrong in McTell's intro to Baby, It Must Be Love, though...? hell, they're both probably all wrong, but it was fun to finally get a grip on that kooky octave voicing.

[waxwing]

Oh, well that's just fine. Now if I want to play McTell and Leadbelly, I gotta get another 12?!?! I guess if I'm ever in the chips again I'll be puttin' in a call to Mr. Cambio (don't hold your breath, Todd). Oh, jeez, and I forgot about Barbecue Bob!!! All unisons. Seriously, tho', great work Frank. And you too, Chris.Great effort. For someone like me who is really just beginning to develop his ear, you guys are inspirational (along with Buddha JohnM, of course) Thanks.
All for now.
John C.

[frankie]

Oh, well that's just fine. Now if I want to play McTell and Leadbelly, I gotta get another 12?!?!

Yeah - seems like at least two.  More if you don't ever want to switch setups!

[banjochris]

Thanks everybody for the comments on writing down all those keys. I started with some of the postwar stuff and hope to have it finished in a couple of days, along with the LoC recordings. Listening to the Regal/SIW recordings for the first time in quite a while, I was pleasantly surprised how good they were. Alas, for figuring out Curley Weaver's stuff, he's dreadfully under-recorded on them, but I think I've got most of them.

Anyway, I'll post it as soon as I write a couple of papers (trying to finish the BA only 16 years after high school). That second-string stuff is wild; can't wait to try it.
Chris

[banjochris]

Here's the second and last part of the McTell keys. Some of the stuff with Curley Weaver from the late '40s is my best guess, because either McTell or Weaver's guitar is off-mike. That octave second string finally explains Murderer's Home Blues -- that tune had always driven me crazy, because I knew it was in drop D, but couldn't figure out where the high tonic note was coming from.

Title is followed by playing position, then actual key, then Curley Weaver's playing position, if applicable. + means that it's sharp of this key, but less than a fret.

LoC:
You Got to Die; vestapol; A-flat+
Climbing High Mountains; vestapol; A-flat+
Boll Weavil; G; C
Delia; C; F
Dying Crapshooter's Blues; Dm (ends on F chord); Gm
Will Fox; C; F
I Got to Cross the River Jordan; vestapol; A-flat+
Old Time Religion; vestapol; A-flat+
Amazing Grace; vestapol; A-flat+
King Edward Blues; C; F
Murderer's Home Blues; drop D; G
Kill-It-Kid Rag; G; C
Chainey; vestapol; A-flat+
I Got to Cross the River of Jordan; vestapol; A

Atlantic:
Kill it Kid; G; B
Razor Ball; G; B
Little Delia; C; E
Broke Down Engine; E; A-flat
Dying Crapshooter's Blues; Dm (ends on F chord); F#m
Pinetop's Boogie Woogie; G; B-flat+
Blues Around Midnight; C; E-flat+ (almost E)
Last Dime Blues; E; G+
On the Cooling Board; E; G+
Motherless Children; vestapol; G
I Got to Cross the River of Jordan; vestapol; G
You Got to Die; vestapol; G+
Ain't It Grand to Live a Christian; vestapol; G+
Pearly Gates; C; E
Soon This Morning; drop D; F+

Regal/SIW:
My Baby's Gone; no McTell; B-flat; A
Ticket Agent; no McTell; A+; A
Don't Forget It; E; A; A?
A to Z Blues; C; F; F
It's A Good Little Thing; C; F; F
You Can't Get Stuff No More; C; F; F
Love Changin' Blues; vestapol; G; G
Savannah Mama; vestapol; G; G
Talkin' To You; E; A; A?
East St. Louis (Fare You Well); E; A; A?

These two are somewhat problematic as McTell's guitar is underrecorded and Weaver plays lead:
Wee Midnight Hours; A?; E; E
She Don't Treat Me Good; G?; C; C

Brownskin Women; E; A; A
I Keep On Drinking; drop D; G; G
Pal of Mine; C; F; F
Pal of Mine; C; F; F
Honey It Must Be Love; C; F; F
Sending Up My Timber; G; C; C
Sending Up My Timber; G; C; C
Lord Have Mercy; C; F; F
Trying to Get Home; C; F; F
It's My Desire; C; E+
Hide Me In Thy Bosom; C; F
Some Rainy Day; no McTell; A-flat; G
Trixie; no McTell; G+; G

Last Session:
Baby It Must Be Love; C; E+
Dyin' Crapshooters Blues; Dm (ends on F chord); F#m+
Don't Forget It; E; A-flat
Kill It Kid; G; B+
That Will Never Happen No More; G; B
Goodbye Blues; G; B
Salty Dog; G; B
Beedle Um Bum; F; A+
A Married Man's A Fool; C; E+
A to Z Blues; C; E+
Wabash Cannonball; D; F#+
Pal of Mine; C; E+