Topic: oscar schmidt serial nos.

[crawley]

Hey guys,
I wanted to see if any of you know anything about oscar schmidt serial numbers. I just got a little guitar that's basically a stella, but has the name 'Artist' in script on the headstock. 5,7,10,&12 dots and arched back. It's very similar to a stella that was just up on ebay recently.
Anyways it's got 30 3241(i think, it's kinda hard to make out,) stamped on the top brace between the bridge and sound hole.
Any help with dating the guitar would be awesome. Pics soon of this and my L-1, I hope.
By the way,..it sounds awesome!
Aaron

[onewent]

howdy, crawley, congrats on your new guitar ... unfortunately, OS guitars weren't serial #'d ... in discussion w/ Neil Harpe (who may chime in here any time) it's not unusual to have those stamped numbers in an OS instrument (one of my three have them), but I don't think they're understood to be serial #'s ... batch or lot #'s maybe? ... the only way to ID and date your guitar is to see photos and also provide measurements at the lower bout and scale length ... three common sizes are 13.5"lower bout w/ 25" scale (measure nut to saddle) called the concert size, 14.5" lower bout w/ 26.5" scale (grand concert), and the jumbo weighing in at 15.5" lower bout and a 26.5" scale, and I think the placement of the fret markers are in line w/ what OS did, too...but I'm not familiar w/ the Artist name...check out stellaguitars.com for more info and a chance to buy Neil's book on the OS company...hope this is a start...

[harpe]

As you might already know, I've seen quite a few Oscar Schmidt guitars. These guitars often have numbers inside, usually on the top brace just south of the sound hole. Unfortunately, the numbers do not seem to follow any chronological order. One thing I have noticed: they nearly always have 30 as first numerals. This holds true for instruments made in the early 1920s as well as those made in the latter half of the 1930s.

Dating an old Oscar Schmidt Stella is often at best guesswork and/or deduction. One can judge the date of manufacture to a certain degree by style or model. However, many Stella models did not change perceptively over the course of some 25 years! The paper label inside the guitar (if it is still there) can also indicate the approximate date of manufacture. These labels changed over the course of time. Guitars made in the '20s have a different label than those made in the early '30s. There were at least six different labels used, depending on the era of manufacture.

Neil Harpe

[crawley]

Thanks for the info.
Neil, I'm glad you responded. I wondered if you have seen any of these Artist guitars before. It's definitly an o.s. guitar. The only other one I've come across was identical to mine. Even down to the reddish stained neck that does not match the body. It has the small sunburst like most of the decalcomania style guitars but no decals. Just a checkerboard marquetry on top edges and soundhole. The name Artist is impressed as well as screened onto the slotted headstock where Stella would normally be. Im curious as to whether the company was like first hawaiian conservatory or the other mail order lesson deals. I think it was origionally a hawaiian style because there is no wear on any of the frets or on the fretboard.
I only paid a hundred bucks for it. I think I may have gotten a good deal.
Aaron

[harpe]

Making an understatement, Aaron says, "I only paid a hundred bucks for it. I think I may have gotten a good deal."

Yes, definitely you got a good deal.

I have seen "Artist" Stella guitars before. In fact, I remember seeing that name on a brass tag (like some Sovereigns have). There were quite a few "off brand" names that appear on Schmidt headstocks from time to time. Jewell, Reliance,U.A.C. to name just three off the top of my head. Paper labels inside of guitars (names like Bruno, Lyra, Miami and Galiano) are sometimes pasted directly on top of a Stella label.

It pays to know how to identify a Stella by factors other than the name that appears on the instrument!

Neil Harpe

[harpe]

I was wrong about the name on the brass tag being "artist". Actually, the name was "Art-i-so".? If you want to see it, here's where a photo of it lives: http://www.toad.net/~harpe/artiso.htm

Neil Harpe

[waxwing]

Hey Neil,
Welcome to Weenie Campbell. Your knowledge of Stellas and vintage Gibsons (and any others) is greatly appreciated here, not to mention your knowledge of the music. Just got back from Jersey but didn't have time to get down to Annapolis. I'll probably be out east a lot in the next year so I'll see you soon. Glad to see you here.
All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

Yes, welcome Neil! It'd be great to get you to Port Townsend to teach one year. (hint to the powers that be...)

[crawley]

Neil,
Thanks for the link to the cool picture. I practically live for looking at photos of old Schmidts! Gimme more, more, MORE!!!
I guess I need to check out this P.T. thing, huh?

Aaron

[dabluz]

neil,

can you tell me anything about this stella? thanks in advance

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[harpe]

NICE!
The black finish Stellas are my favorites. They're pretty scarce. And with that beautiful engraved MOTS fingerboard... you have a serious "looker" my friend! "Faux pearl" purfling, too!? A truly Stellar find!

NH

[onewent]

...wow, nice Stella!  ...is that painted black on the inside, too?

[dabluz]

thanks, maybe neal will see it and let me know what it is. no the inside is not black, i guess it just showed up that way from the flash. and the  orange mark on the lower bout is actually reflection of the can light in the cieling above. thanks for the kind comments

[crawley]

Whoa!
Great stella. I'm diggin this thread guys. Maybe Neil should have a forum like this on his stella website. I sure love lookin' at everybody else's guitars.
Aaron

[harpe]

Dabluz said, "maybe neal (oops...make that Neil) will see it and let me know what it is."

This is a black finish Stella guitar (or "ebony finish" if you prefer). It is difficult to designate it in terms of model name or number. At this time, I have not come across any catalogs showing the complete line of Stella and Sovereign guitars...other than the (reprinted) 1921 Schmidt catalog. I do not remember that publication making reference to black finished guitars. So I'd say this guitar is at least a little later than 1921.

I have copies of some Schmidt advertisements dating from as early as 1928 that do show black guitars. Most notably, the "Gambler" model. That guitar was black, with "playing cards" decals. Some "Gambler" guitars had the engraved MOTS fingerboard, other did not. Schmidt instruments were "all over the place" as far as design (sorta like Gibson was around the same era.)

Neil

[dabluz]

neil,

thanks, sorry about the misspell, the information i got at purchase was approx 28-31 and was a blind lemon model. there is a picture of him playing a similar looking stella in "the history of american blues" in that publicaton they refer to it as a "perloid" but it's not exactly like the one pictured with blind lemmon. stella is very difficult to nail down as you say. thanks very much for your info.

if you don't mind i'm going to send you a picture of a circa 1890's "BEERE & SONS" parlor that i'm about to do a neck reset on , maybe you know something about these, i can't find a thing.

[crawley]

Neil has mentioned a reprint of a 1921 catalog. Where can a poor boy get a copy of this? I know of a website where you can view a few pages from a Stella/Sovereign catalog that has banjos and guitjos. But no guitar pages are posted.
Aaron

[onewent]

...and the top, back and sides are all birch on the black Stellas, correctomundo?

[harpe]

Elderly Instruments used to sell the reprint 1921 Stella/Sovereign catalog. You might also try Bernunzio Vintage Instruments.

...and the top, back and sides are all birch on the black Stellas, correctomundo?

Not necessarily. The ones I have seen have had birch tops. However, production coming out of the Schmidt factory was all over the place. They would sometimes substitute spruce for birch for the top of guitars that would otherwise receive a birch top. I have seen this on some of the "decalcomania" guitars that customarily have all-birch construction.

Neil Harpe

[harpe]

I forgot about one Stella that DID have a black finish and spruce top! How could I forget "Blackie"? She was the first black finish Stella I ever came across. A wonderful jumbo/auditorium sized guitar, "Blackie" was light as a feather and had a huge sound.

N.H.

[crawley]

Neil, if you're still checking out this thread, I have another O.S. question for you.

I've noticed on my guitar, and a on a few other Schmidt made guitars, that there are what looks like hand written numbers on the fretboard indicating the frets. One of these other guitars was one of those cool 7 string Tonaharps. They even all look like they were written by the same person. Do you have any idea if this was done at the factory or if the commissioning company did it?

I love the O.S. obscurities and mysteries.

Crawley

[harpe]

Hi Crawley,

There are often numbers written on the fingerboards of old guitars. The numbers were most often added by teachers, as a learning tool for students of the Hawaiian guitar technique.? Playing the Hawaiian guitar? was a huge craze during the first several decades of the 20th Century. I've seen Regals, Harmonys, Kays, even Martin and Gibson guitars with similar numbering. Fingerboards being characteristically dark in color, the numbers are usually hand written in white ink.

The Oscar Schmidt Company cashed in on the Hawaiian guitar craze in a big way! They established a network of "Hawaiian Guitar Conservatories" all over the world. These were mostly mail order lessons, where the student paid in installments and received not only lessons, but an instrument as well. They ran advertisements in newspapers and national magazines and attracted thousands of students between 1915 and 1935. These "Hawaiian Conservatory" guitars, though quite modest, are exceptionally good sounding instruments. They came with a numbered paper learning aid glued to the fingerboard, rather than having numbers added by the teacher.

Another company that did well in the "Hawaiian Guitars business" was the Oahu Company. They had a network of teachers, all of whom sold "Oahu" sheet music and "genuine Oahu guitars" to their students. Most Oahu guitars were made by Kay, (although early on, they sold a few that were made by Oscar Schmidt). Another company was "Bronson", an offshoot of Oahu. The Oahu and Bronson (Kay) guitars cover the entire range of quality - student models made entirely of birch as well as very fancy spruce top examples with lots of pearl and gold leaf ornamentation. Most were made with square necks and almost every one of these guitars will have the white numbers on the fingerboard.