Topic: Pre-War Blues Ballads?

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It strikes me that "Wild Bill Jones" is sung and told in the first person, as was "Little Sadie", and that "Pretty Polly" is variably in dialogue and third person narration.  Maybe this is an instance where defining Blues Ballad, rather than casting a wider net, would make sense.
All best,
Johnm

[Bunker Hill]

Betty and Dupree is another, done by Pink Anderson, Buddy Moss, Willie Walker, Georgia White, John Jackson and numerous others, I'm sure.

Smith, Chris. "A Hangin' Crime: A Balladic Blues and the True Story Behind It. Pt 1." Blues & Rhythm no. 96 (Feb 1995): 4-7; "Pt 2." Blues & Rhythm no. 97 (Mar 1995): 4-8.

Contains several photos of said duo. Shame it hasn't been republished.

[banjochris]

Hi all,
It strikes me that "Wild Bill Jones" is sung and told in the first person, as was "Little Sadie", and that "Pretty Polly" is variably in dialogue and third person narration.  Maybe this is an instance where defining Blues Ballad, rather than casting a wider net, would make sense.

Good point, John -- I wonder how we would define it? If it's a ballad in AAB blues form, most of the tunes mentioned here would be eliminated, including Stackolee, Duncan and Brady, Louis Collins, etc. - they would just be ballads.

I think you could make a case for Pretty Polly having a blues-like structure, and Betty and Dupree would definitely qualify. Others might include Blind Blake's Police Dog Blues, Furry Lewis' Judge Harsh Blues, Papa Charlie Jackson's Lexington Kentucky Blues and Coffee Pot Blues (8-bar blues there).

Ballads played by blues players would be a much longer list, and really seems to be mostly what we've been talking about here.
Chris
Chris

[Johnm]

Building on your points, Chris, it's interesting that few Blues Ballads employ an AAB lyric structure.  Quite a few, though, do have a one-line refrain--"Stackerlee" (in more than one version), "Frankie" (the same), "Freddie", "Duncan And Brady", "Louis Collins", and "Delia".  And several of these conform to commonly-encountered blues forms in the chordal sense--"Frankie", "Stackerlee", "Betty And Dupree".
All best,
Johnm

[Rivers]

A 'level-set' might be useful at this point probably. We're discussing 'ballad' in the black- or white country blues sense, that of a story told.

[Stefan Wirz]

... while I'm satisfied (and tickled too ;-) that the artists originally creating all this great music (in most cases) didn't care a damn about any categorization 

[uncle bud]

Yes, pretty much goes without saying. I'm sure many of them would not have used terms like 16-bar blues or IV7 chord or vocal refrain either, but the terms are helpful for the purpose of discussing the music.

[dj]

It kind of reminds me of the British academic a century or so ago, back in the golden age of British folk song collecting, who looked at some folk song and said "This can't be a folk song.  It's in the mixolydian mode.  You'll never get me to believe that some uneducated farm worker can write in the mixolydian mode when most of our trained conservatory students aren't even familiar with it."

Would it make more sense to be talking about African-American balladry, or Black American balladry, or whatever?  I think the unique features of the songs we've mentioned aren't unique to blues singers singing ballads, but were more a feature of the community that black blues singers lived in. 

[banjochris]

Would it make more sense to be talking about African-American balladry, or Black American balladry, or whatever?  I think the unique features of the songs we've mentioned aren't unique to blues singers singing ballads, but were more a feature of the community that black blues singers lived in.

I think so -- I didn't mean to sidetrack us into a categorization discussion or exclude any songs except that I think it's an interesting "sub-category" to discuss the songs that really use the blues form (whether with the lyrics or just in their chordal structure) to tell a story.

Going back to the more general topic, I think it's interesting that these blues ballads (or blues-y ballads?) seem like they're among the most popular in both the black and white tradition, Frankie, Stagolee, etc. Is it because of their blues feel or is it because they're American ballads rather than British ones, or some other reason?

[Rivers]

I believe it to be the storytelling aspect, in other words the strength of narrative. It's much easier to draw people in to a tune when it's not overtly abstract.

Nothing against expressionistic, abstract lyrics, they're just more challenging for the majority of an audience to glom on to. Unless you're a particularly charismatic performer, where you could probably deliver a shopping list and move people to tears and/or profound artistic insight.

[banjochris]

I believe it to be the storytelling aspect, in other words the strength of narrative. It's much easier to draw people in to a tune when it's not overtly abstract.

I totally agree, Rivers -- I meant, though, why are these ballads in particular more popular than other ballads like Lord Thomas or Matty Groves or Lady Gay or what have you.

[Mr.OMuck]

No Duncan & Brady compendium could be complete without a mention of Spider John Koerner's epic spoken sung version live from Newport. Definitely worth finding.

 

[dj]

why are these ballads in particular more popular than other ballads like Lord Thomas or Matty Groves or Lady Gay or what have you

I imagine because a century ago they were very up-to-data, both musically and in terms of subject matter.  They must have sounded incredibly modern next to the older ballads tat came over from the British Isles.