Author Topic: Pre-War Blues Ballads? (Read 2177 times)

blah148 · « **on:** June 06, 2012, 05:26:41 PM »

I've always thought that pre-war blues ballads are some of the most beautiful songs around, yet they're kind of scarce.

Some songs that come to mind:

Lonesome Road Blues - Sam Collins
Devil Got My Woman - Skip James
Mother's Blues - Lead Belly
Jim Lee - Charlie Patton

Are there others that you particularly like?

Rivers · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2012, 05:28:27 PM »

How would you define ballad in this context?

blah148 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2012, 05:31:01 PM »

Nostalgic, etc.
For instance, Love in Vain.

Rivers · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2012, 06:12:55 PM »

Well if nostalgia is the single emotion in play, off the top of my head I would propose Geeshie Wiley's Last Kind Words, No More Cane on The Brazos on Deep River Of Song, Texas Field Recordings, Brother Can You Spare A Dime, and Jim Canaan's by Robert Wilkins.

All are nostalgic for good, bad and neutral times lived thoroughly in the past. Good topic actually.

Johnm · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2012, 07:05:42 PM »

Hi all,
I always thought of blues ballads as songs that tell a story, like "Frankie", "Stackerlee", Mance Lipscomb's "Freddie", "Delia", et al. Not a lot of them, unfortunately.
All best,
Johnm

Lyle Lofgren · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2012, 07:12:54 PM »

Technically, a ballad is a song that tells a story. The term has been misused so often in pop music that it can mean almost anything. It's a good idea to include a definition when you use a term like this that's been blenderized.

Lyle

Rivers · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2012, 10:08:01 PM »

Right, which was why I thought we should agree on a definition up front, given that different languages do not always translate conceptual ideas 1-1. Sorry, ex-English as a second language teacher here.

'Nostalgia in CB', though, strikes me as an interesting topic in its own right. Perhaps we should re-title the thread?

sofingraw · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2012, 01:49:54 PM »

If we are defining ballads as songs that tell a story, I like very much the category of murder ballads. My list of favorites, and the artist who's version I like best includes:

Stakolee - previously mentioned
Louis Collins - Mississippi John Hurt
Freddie - previously mentioned, Mance Lipscomb
Ella Speed - Mance
John Hardy - Lead Belly
Little Sadie - Doc Watson

And though, not murders per se..

John Henry/Spike Driver - surely he was worked to death! - MJH
Ballad of Casey Jones - train accident! MJH
God Moves on the Water - Mance

Are there any others I should be on the look out for?

uncle bud · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »

There are some more obscure ones, some have been discussed here previously. Batson by Stavin' Chain is a good 'un. Alabama Red done by Sydney Stripling is good, and uses a similar refrain to Furry Lewis's version of Stack 'o Lee, among others. Rabbit Brown's Mystery of the Dunbar Child and Sinking of the Titanic.

The use of the term ballad in the context of this forum really needs to stick to it's original meaning of a story song (as others have explained above). This is very different from a jazz ballad or pop ballad. Blues ballad and jazz ballad have no relation to each other.

sofingraw · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2012, 02:41:49 PM »

Thanks uncle bud! I'll be sure to try and run those down!

banjochris · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2012, 11:42:04 PM »

Leadbelly's version of "Duncan and Brady" is a good one, too.

uncle bud · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2012, 06:46:51 AM »

Yeah, I really like Leadbelly's Duncan and Brady. And his version "Stewball" is another ballad to add to the list. This would make a good weeniepedia page.

colm kill paul · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:33:35 AM »

Can a ballad be a first person account?

I've been considering if Monday Mornin Blues by MJH is a ballad and I now feel that it isn't. I was trying to think why and I thought perhaps it's because the story is told in the first person. Would you agree that a norm for a ballad is to tell it from the third person perspective.

Colm

Johnm · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2012, 08:14:35 AM »

Hi Colm,
You bring up an interesting point. I agree that "Monday Morning Blues" is not a ballad, though it has some narrative flow. It also has verses that are more standard blues verses. Of the songs that have been suggested thus far for the category of "story song", only "Little Sadie" is told by a first person narrator. I do think ballads are most often sung in the third person, and there's quite often an element of reportage in them.
All best,
Johnm
Edited to add: Since this thread doesn't pertain to any specific recording, I'm moving it to the Main Forum.

uncle bud · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:31:57 AM »

Betty and Dupree is another, done by Pink Anderson, Buddy Moss, Willie Walker, Georgia White, John Jackson and numerous others, I'm sure.

Johnm · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2012, 09:26:40 AM »

Hi all,
It strikes me that "Wild Bill Jones" is sung and told in the first person, as was "Little Sadie", and that "Pretty Polly" is variably in dialogue and third person narration. Maybe this is an instance where defining Blues Ballad, rather than casting a wider net, would make sense.
All best,
Johnm

Bunker Hill · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:45:29 AM »

Quote from: uncle bud on June 12, 2012, 08:31:57 AM

Betty and Dupree is another, done by Pink Anderson, Buddy Moss, Willie Walker, Georgia White, John Jackson and numerous others, I'm sure.

Smith, Chris. "A Hangin' Crime: A Balladic Blues and the True Story Behind It. Pt 1." Blues & Rhythm no. 96 (Feb 1995): 4-7; "Pt 2." Blues & Rhythm no. 97 (Mar 1995): 4-8.

Contains several photos of said duo. Shame it hasn't been republished.

banjochris · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2012, 11:09:39 AM »

Quote from: Johnm on June 12, 2012, 09:26:40 AM

Hi all,
It strikes me that "Wild Bill Jones" is sung and told in the first person, as was "Little Sadie", and that "Pretty Polly" is variably in dialogue and third person narration. Maybe this is an instance where defining Blues Ballad, rather than casting a wider net, would make sense.

Good point, John -- I wonder how we would define it? If it's a ballad in AAB blues form, most of the tunes mentioned here would be eliminated, including Stackolee, Duncan and Brady, Louis Collins, etc. - they would just be ballads.

I think you could make a case for Pretty Polly having a blues-like structure, and Betty and Dupree would definitely qualify. Others might include Blind Blake's Police Dog Blues, Furry Lewis' Judge Harsh Blues, Papa Charlie Jackson's Lexington Kentucky Blues and Coffee Pot Blues (8-bar blues there).

Ballads played by blues players would be a much longer list, and really seems to be mostly what we've been talking about here.
Chris
Chris

Johnm · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2012, 12:39:51 PM »

Building on your points, Chris, it's interesting that few Blues Ballads employ an AAB lyric structure. Quite a few, though, do have a one-line refrain--"Stackerlee" (in more than one version), "Frankie" (the same), "Freddie", "Duncan And Brady", "Louis Collins", and "Delia". And several of these conform to commonly-encountered blues forms in the chordal sense--"Frankie", "Stackerlee", "Betty And Dupree".
All best,
Johnm

Rivers · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2012, 06:49:14 PM »

A 'level-set' might be useful at this point probably. We're discussing 'ballad' in the black- or white country blues sense, that of a story told.

Stefan Wirz · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2012, 02:50:19 AM »

... while I'm satisfied (and tickled too ;-) that the artists originally creating all this great music (in most cases) didn't care a damn about any categorization

uncle bud · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2012, 05:31:03 AM »

Yes, pretty much goes without saying. I'm sure many of them would not have used terms like 16-bar blues or IV7 chord or vocal refrain either, but the terms are helpful for the purpose of discussing the music.

dj · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2012, 06:23:10 AM »

It kind of reminds me of the British academic a century or so ago, back in the golden age of British folk song collecting, who looked at some folk song and said "This can't be a folk song. It's in the mixolydian mode. You'll never get me to believe that some uneducated farm worker can write in the mixolydian mode when most of our trained conservatory students aren't even familiar with it."

Would it make more sense to be talking about African-American balladry, or Black American balladry, or whatever? I think the unique features of the songs we've mentioned aren't unique to blues singers singing ballads, but were more a feature of the community that black blues singers lived in.

banjochris · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2012, 09:08:53 AM »

Quote from: dj on June 13, 2012, 06:23:10 AM

Would it make more sense to be talking about African-American balladry, or Black American balladry, or whatever? I think the unique features of the songs we've mentioned aren't unique to blues singers singing ballads, but were more a feature of the community that black blues singers lived in.

I think so -- I didn't mean to sidetrack us into a categorization discussion or exclude any songs except that I think it's an interesting "sub-category" to discuss the songs that really use the blues form (whether with the lyrics or just in their chordal structure) to tell a story.

Going back to the more general topic, I think it's interesting that these blues ballads (or blues-y ballads?) seem like they're among the most popular in both the black and white tradition, Frankie, Stagolee, etc. Is it because of their blues feel or is it because they're American ballads rather than British ones, or some other reason?

Rivers · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2012, 05:55:24 PM »

I believe it to be the storytelling aspect, in other words the strength of narrative. It's much easier to draw people in to a tune when it's not overtly abstract.

Nothing against expressionistic, abstract lyrics, they're just more challenging for the majority of an audience to glom on to. Unless you're a particularly charismatic performer, where you could probably deliver a shopping list and move people to tears and/or profound artistic insight.

banjochris · « **Reply #25 on:** June 13, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »

Quote from: Rivers on June 13, 2012, 05:55:24 PM

I believe it to be the storytelling aspect, in other words the strength of narrative. It's much easier to draw people in to a tune when it's not overtly abstract.

I totally agree, Rivers -- I meant, though, why are these ballads in particular more popular than other ballads like Lord Thomas or Matty Groves or Lady Gay or what have you.

Mr.OMuck · « **Reply #26 on:** June 13, 2012, 09:05:10 PM »

No Duncan & Brady compendium could be complete without a mention of Spider John Koerner's epic spoken sung version live from Newport. Definitely worth finding.

dj · « **Reply #27 on:** June 14, 2012, 04:30:06 AM »

Quote

why are these ballads in particular more popular than other ballads like Lord Thomas or Matty Groves or Lady Gay or what have you

I imagine because a century ago they were very up-to-data, both musically and in terms of subject matter. They must have sounded incredibly modern next to the older ballads tat came over from the British Isles.

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Author Topic: Pre-War Blues Ballads? (Read 2177 times)