Topic: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.

[Deluge]

I?m not sure if anyone here has heard the Lyle Lofgren home recordings of Davis and Cotten from 1965 but there are a few excerpts on the Brandy Snifters website. 

http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/BrnSnift/SonicAlbum.html

Enjoy!

[outfidel]

Amazing! I wish there more audio & photos of this get-together!

[Deluge]

That was the only picture of Davis and Cotten together.

Here's an interesting duo...


Bill Monroe and Mance Lipscomb Minneapolis '66


Or this surreal photo of Clarence Ashley and Tex Isley Minneapolis '65

[outfidel]

Love both of those two photos.

One photograph I've been hoping to see is Doc Watson & Mississippi John Hurt together. I know they spent time together in the 1960s, and I'm assuming someone (Dave Gahr, perhaps?) had a camera handy when it happened. Alas, I've never seen a photo of those two together.

[waxwing]

So, is it just me or does Ms. Cotten sound like she feels like she is being patronized just a bit? Which I guess I kinda feel she was, so maybe I'm projecting? What is it about Gary that won't let him see that she is his equal as an artist, just the way she is, and he could maybe learn a thing or two from her if he would just listen?

This kind of insight sure helps you to see these individuals as real people, eh? No matter what you may think of them as performers, nor how you may interpret these interchanges.

All for now.
John C.

[outfidel]

John C. -

I agree, RGD is pretty condescending to Libba. That seems to be a part of his personality & the way he felt about a lot traditional fingerpickers. For instance, Stefan Grossman tells the story about introducing Rev Gary Davis & Mississippi John Hurt -- afterwards, RGD said a few derisive things about MJH's playing style & ability.

[banjochris]

One photograph I've been hoping to see is Doc Watson & Mississippi John Hurt together. I know they spent time together in the 1960s, and I'm assuming someone (Dave Gahr, perhaps?) had a camera handy when it happened. Alas, I've never seen a photo of those two together.

There's a picture of Almeda Riddle, Doc's mother, Doc and MJH on page 68 of The Songs of Doc Watson -- Oak Publications -- if it weren't 2 in the morning I'd scan it for you. I'll post it tomorrow unless someone beats me to it.
Chris

[Mr.OMuck]

So, is it just me or does Ms. Cotten sound like she feels like she is being patronized just a bit? Which I guess I kinda feel she was, so maybe I'm projecting? What is it about Gary that won't let him see that she is his equal as an artist, just the way she is, and he could maybe learn a thing or two from her if he would just listen?

I think this was just RGD "on the job" so to speak. I think he played the law of averages and came on to every woman he could in every way he could in hopes of getting lucky someway. Coming on as the voice of authority is something men have occasionally been known to do to impress women, nes't cafe?

[doctorpep]

Well, from what I understand, the only musicians Davis admired were Blind Blake and Willie Walker, and perpahs Lonnie Johnson? He was a very tough critic, and as we've all read on the Weenie quotes, he demonstrated to Dave Van Ronk the technique of Blind Lemon, and basically said it was kids' stuff! He was a very tough critic. He also didn't like Mance Lipscomb, and as you guys mentioned, John Hurt. I wonder what he thought of Skip James, who had a very eccentric, hard to replicate style.

[Mr.OMuck]

He also liked Big Bill. Here's something to consider. Gary Davis came to New York City in I believe 1939-or 40.
I'm bad with dates so correct me if you have conflicting liner notes available. He was preceded by Josh White and Leadbelly, and maybe Sonny & Brownie. Josh White was already making a name for himself in white New York, mostly left wing circles. RGD had a much tougher row to hoe by dint of his blindness, the religious content of his songs (not exactly what the left was into), his gruff voice, and the startling  and unfamiliar originality of his playing. While the audience for Blues has always been small, back then in New York it was miniscule, and these performers were pioneers in bringing this music to a new audience. Gary Davis was just beginning to earn begrudging attention from this audience in the late fifties and early sixties after a decade and a half of grueling, on the the razors edge of survival, hand to mouth living. Leadbelly, Josh White and Sonny & Brownie did not have to resort to playing on the streets during this period as far as I know.  So how would you feel about a potential competitor or group of competitors suddenly being "discovered' and showing up to reap the benefits of your pioneering efforts by taking club dates and festival gigs and record deals that you might have been offered? Might just piss you off a little and bring out the ungenerous competitive side of your personality right? It might be especially true if you knew, really knew, that you really were a better guitar player than any of them, which imo is the case, much as I love and revere Libba Cotton, MJH, Skip James, Mance Lipscomb and all the rest.

[doctorpep]

Great theory! And Davis didn't start giving lessons for money until the late 1950s, right? He certainly couldn't make a living off of just that! Do we get the feeling that he paid more compliments to the young white players like Van Ronk than to his black contemporaries?

[waxwing]

It might be especially true if you knew, really knew, that you really were a better guitar player than any of them, which imo is the case, much as I love and revere Libba Cotton, MJH, Skip James, Mance Lipscomb and all the rest.

Well, if audiences were most impressed by guitar playing alone maybe. But it's the whole artistic package that really wins audiences over, not technical virtuosity. And I think Libba (and most of those singers you mentioned) had it goin' on, artistically, with a lot broader appeal to audiences, which is what I was implying the Rev might have noticed, if he had listened. Sure he was coming on to her, but in such a demeaning way that really exemplifies the chauvinism of his culture. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, just a product of his life, but, yech.

All for now.
John C.

[Mr.OMuck]

How many of us would want our flirtations broadcast? Do you imagine they would be much more palatable?
As for broader appeal, what's that got to do with art? In terms of the artistic merits of his work, RGD occupies
an almost unique position among his contemporaries, imo. As a practicing,non believer I am forced to admit that the weight of historical evidence seems to indicate that the greatest art results from a religious or spiritual impulse. Michelangelo's Last Judgement, Bach's B-Minor Mass & St. Matthew Passion, Mozart's Requiem, Milton's Paradise Lost, Tintoretto's paintings for the Scoula de San Rocco, Blind Willie Johnson, Giotto's St. Francis cycle, Masaccio's Expulsion. The list could fill a Manhattan phone book and then some. Add to that my esteemed mentor RGD.
Sex, Motherhood, Food, Death, Transcendence.

[waxwing]

Yes, but the Rev seemed to be implying that he could make Ms Cotten more "successful" which seems to imply his attachment to a monetary success which an understanding of a broader appeal would have brought him, no? Again, just seeing the "human" side of things.

All for now.
John C.

[Mr.OMuck]

I'll listen again but I heard that he claimed he would make her " greater"  & more successful not necessarily in financial terms, but perhaps I missed that bit.