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I've been to Hell and back in - I bought a round trip ticket. To Hell, Norway that is. Good little blues festival, but I just couldn't get into the Norwegian band names - Blind Arne Bjornson and the Tundra Gators? - Jerry Ricks, Port Townsend 99

Author Topic: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.  (Read 5662 times)

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Offline Deluge

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I?m not sure if anyone here has heard the Lyle Lofgren home recordings of Davis and Cotten from 1965 but there are a few excerpts on the Brandy Snifters website. 

http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/BrnSnift/SonicAlbum.html

Enjoy!

« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 08:09:37 AM by Deluge »

Offline outfidel

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 10:09:27 AM »
Amazing! I wish there more audio & photos of this get-together!
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Offline Deluge

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 10:47:25 AM »
That was the only picture of Davis and Cotten together.

Here's an interesting duo...


Bill Monroe and Mance Lipscomb Minneapolis '66


Or this surreal photo of Clarence Ashley and Tex Isley Minneapolis '65
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:38:13 PM by Deluge »

Offline outfidel

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 11:29:56 AM »
Love both of those two photos.

One photograph I've been hoping to see is Doc Watson & Mississippi John Hurt together. I know they spent time together in the 1960s, and I'm assuming someone (Dave Gahr, perhaps?) had a camera handy when it happened. Alas, I've never seen a photo of those two together.
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Offline waxwing

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2008, 08:19:05 PM »
So, is it just me or does Ms. Cotten sound like she feels like she is being patronized just a bit? Which I guess I kinda feel she was, so maybe I'm projecting? What is it about Gary that won't let him see that she is his equal as an artist, just the way she is, and he could maybe learn a thing or two from her if he would just listen?

This kind of insight sure helps you to see these individuals as real people, eh? No matter what you may think of them as performers, nor how you may interpret these interchanges.

All for now.
John C.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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Offline outfidel

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 01:07:03 PM »
John C. -

I agree, RGD is pretty condescending to Libba. That seems to be a part of his personality & the way he felt about a lot traditional fingerpickers. For instance, Stefan Grossman tells the story about introducing Rev Gary Davis & Mississippi John Hurt -- afterwards, RGD said a few derisive things about MJH's playing style & ability.
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Offline banjochris

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 02:14:32 AM »

One photograph I've been hoping to see is Doc Watson & Mississippi John Hurt together. I know they spent time together in the 1960s, and I'm assuming someone (Dave Gahr, perhaps?) had a camera handy when it happened. Alas, I've never seen a photo of those two together.

There's a picture of Almeda Riddle, Doc's mother, Doc and MJH on page 68 of The Songs of Doc Watson -- Oak Publications -- if it weren't 2 in the morning I'd scan it for you. I'll post it tomorrow unless someone beats me to it.
Chris

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 02:58:35 PM »
Quote
So, is it just me or does Ms. Cotten sound like she feels like she is being patronized just a bit? Which I guess I kinda feel she was, so maybe I'm projecting? What is it about Gary that won't let him see that she is his equal as an artist, just the way she is, and he could maybe learn a thing or two from her if he would just listen?

I think this was just RGD "on the job" so to speak. I think he played the law of averages and came on to every woman he could in every way he could in hopes of getting lucky someway. Coming on as the voice of authority is something men have occasionally been known to do to impress women, nes't cafe?
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline doctorpep

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 07:42:55 PM »
Well, from what I understand, the only musicians Davis admired were Blind Blake and Willie Walker, and perpahs Lonnie Johnson? He was a very tough critic, and as we've all read on the Weenie quotes, he demonstrated to Dave Van Ronk the technique of Blind Lemon, and basically said it was kids' stuff! He was a very tough critic. He also didn't like Mance Lipscomb, and as you guys mentioned, John Hurt. I wonder what he thought of Skip James, who had a very eccentric, hard to replicate style.
"There ain't no Heaven, ain't no burning Hell. Where I go when I die, can't nobody tell."

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Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 08:41:20 PM »
He also liked Big Bill. Here's something to consider. Gary Davis came to New York City in I believe 1939-or 40.
I'm bad with dates so correct me if you have conflicting liner notes available. He was preceded by Josh White and Leadbelly, and maybe Sonny & Brownie. Josh White was already making a name for himself in white New York, mostly left wing circles. RGD had a much tougher row to hoe by dint of his blindness, the religious content of his songs (not exactly what the left was into), his gruff voice, and the startling  and unfamiliar originality of his playing. While the audience for Blues has always been small, back then in New York it was miniscule, and these performers were pioneers in bringing this music to a new audience. Gary Davis was just beginning to earn begrudging attention from this audience in the late fifties and early sixties after a decade and a half of grueling, on the the razors edge of survival, hand to mouth living. Leadbelly, Josh White and Sonny & Brownie did not have to resort to playing on the streets during this period as far as I know.  So how would you feel about a potential competitor or group of competitors suddenly being "discovered' and showing up to reap the benefits of your pioneering efforts by taking club dates and festival gigs and record deals that you might have been offered? Might just piss you off a little and bring out the ungenerous competitive side of your personality right? It might be especially true if you knew, really knew, that you really were a better guitar player than any of them, which imo is the case, much as I love and revere Libba Cotton, MJH, Skip James, Mance Lipscomb and all the rest.
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline doctorpep

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 10:55:57 PM »
Great theory! And Davis didn't start giving lessons for money until the late 1950s, right? He certainly couldn't make a living off of just that! Do we get the feeling that he paid more compliments to the young white players like Van Ronk than to his black contemporaries?
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Offline waxwing

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 11:36:27 PM »
It might be especially true if you knew, really knew, that you really were a better guitar player than any of them, which imo is the case, much as I love and revere Libba Cotton, MJH, Skip James, Mance Lipscomb and all the rest.

Well, if audiences were most impressed by guitar playing alone maybe. But it's the whole artistic package that really wins audiences over, not technical virtuosity. And I think Libba (and most of those singers you mentioned) had it goin' on, artistically, with a lot broader appeal to audiences, which is what I was implying the Rev might have noticed, if he had listened. Sure he was coming on to her, but in such a demeaning way that really exemplifies the chauvinism of his culture. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, just a product of his life, but, yech.

All for now.
John C.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 11:57:25 PM by waxwing »
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

http://www.youtube.com/user/WaxwingJohn
CD on YT

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 05:35:32 AM »
How many of us would want our flirtations broadcast? Do you imagine they would be much more palatable?
As for broader appeal, what's that got to do with art? In terms of the artistic merits of his work, RGD occupies
an almost unique position among his contemporaries, imo. As a practicing,non believer I am forced to admit that the weight of historical evidence seems to indicate that the greatest art results from a religious or spiritual impulse. Michelangelo's Last Judgement, Bach's B-Minor Mass & St. Matthew Passion, Mozart's Requiem, Milton's Paradise Lost, Tintoretto's paintings for the Scoula de San Rocco, Blind Willie Johnson, Giotto's St. Francis cycle, Masaccio's Expulsion. The list could fill a Manhattan phone book and then some. Add to that my esteemed mentor RGD.
Sex, Motherhood, Food, Death, Transcendence.
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline waxwing

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 07:59:51 AM »
Yes, but the Rev seemed to be implying that he could make Ms Cotten more "successful" which seems to imply his attachment to a monetary success which an understanding of a broader appeal would have brought him, no? Again, just seeing the "human" side of things.

All for now.
John C.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

http://www.youtube.com/user/WaxwingJohn
CD on YT

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 08:19:06 AM »
I'll listen again but I heard that he claimed he would make her " greater"  & more successful not necessarily in financial terms, but perhaps I missed that bit.
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline uncle bud

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 09:56:15 AM »
Have to agree with O'Muck, this just seems like Rev. Davis showing off for a woman. I think too much is being read into it. And 1965 wasn't exactly the apex of achievement in women's rights and changing men's attitudes and behavior either. This kind of chauvinism and patronizing attitude would hardly be limited to Rev. Davis's culture. And it's not like it's very hard to find guys who behave like this today -- any woman I'm sure could provide us with more examples than we'd care for.

Not that this behavior has to be directed solely at women as part of a come-on either. I think we've all had experiences with someone who has tried to impress us as the great wise man.

As for audiences being impressed by "guitar playing alone", nice try, Wax. ;) We do have to get you an RGD mix tape you won't be able to resist. We're gonna cure you of your lowdown ways.

I too did not notice the financial connection, aside from the bit at the end where they both talk about getting $5 for guitar lessons.

Offline eagle rockin daddy

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 10:58:25 AM »
Dunno if this is correct, but Peter, Paul and Mary recorded, 'If I had my way' or Sampson and Delilah in '62, so by 1965, I would guess Rev. Davis was doing pretty well, and perhaps was feeling a bit ok about his circumstances.  From what I've heard of him, I would agree with the idea that he was trying to impress Ms. Cotten.  I bet he is jealous of the fact that Libba, as well as a few other of his students have signature model guitars and he doesn't though.....

(even though Libba's is just mahogany)


Mike



Offline outfidel

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 11:25:20 AM »
In this Rev Gary Davis interview conducted by Stefan Grossman, the Rev shows his disregard for traditional fingerpickers:

Quote
Q: Did your grandparents play instruments?

A: I didn?t know anything about my grandfather on my mother?s side. All I knew was them to play the harp. I had an Uncle who played guitar.

Q: Did he play well?

A: Long about them days what they called playing well wasn?t what I could call playing well today.

My guess is that he held a similar opinion for the playing of Elizabeth Cotten (whose "just mahogany" sig model is very nice, mr eagle ;) )
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Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 03:21:37 PM »
Quote
I bet he is jealous of the fact that Libba, as well as a few other of his students have signature model guitars and he doesn't though.....

(even though Libba's is just mahogany)

He did have a signature model. It is called the Gibson J200 and nobody interested in this music ever bought one for any other reason other than that he played one.
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline Johnm

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »
Hi all,
It seems to me that Rev. Gary Davis' stature is big enough to withstand criticism of his occasional peevish egocentricity or lechery without apologies or special pleading on his behalf.  At the same time, it seems like we could extend the kind of acceptance of that behavior in him that we must hope others extend us in our less admirable moments. 
In fact, virtually every student of Rev. Davis that I have ever met or talked to, including Mr. O'Muck, Ernie Hawkins, Stefan Grossman and Woody Mann, have many tales to tell of Rev. Davis' kindness and generosity, as well as perceptive advice (not always on musical subjects).  Unfortunately, stories of kindness, generosity, and perceptive advice are not particularly sexy, and tend to be re-told in one-on-one situations rather than to a mass audience on the internet.
There is a kind of puny delectation that attaches to anecdotes of great personalities behaving in an all-too-human fashion--there's a certain perverse pleasure in seeing giants cut themselves down to size.  Even taken on his own terms, I don't believe Gary Davis would ever contend that he was not a sinner. . .it's just that his faith saved him.  Whether we believe this or not is not the point--he believed it.  The subject of his snide comments comes up over and over again.  Can we agree to get over it, once and for all?  He was human and not always admirable or likeable.
all best,
Johnm   

Offline dave stott

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 04:32:14 PM »
A little hero bashing every now and then is probably a good thing.

Epecially amongst friends and devotee's

: -) :)

Dave

Offline NevadaPic

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 05:04:00 PM »
Hi all,
It seems to me that Rev. Gary Davis' stature is big enough to withstand criticism of his occasional peevish egocentricity or lechery without apologies or special pleading on his behalf.  At the same time, it seems like we could extend the kind of acceptance of that behavior in him that we must hope others extend us in our less admirable moments. 
In fact, virtually every student of Rev. Davis that I have ever met or talked to, including Mr. O'Muck, Ernie Hawkins, Stefan Grossman and Woody Mann, have many tales to tell of Rev. Davis' kindness and generosity, as well as perceptive advice (not always on musical subjects).  Unfortunately, stories of kindness, generosity, and perceptive advice are not particularly sexy, and tend to be re-told in one-on-one situations rather than to a mass audience on the internet.
There is a kind of puny delectation that attaches to anecdotes of great personalities behaving in an all-too-human fashion--there's a certain perverse pleasure in seeing giants cut themselves down to size.  Even taken on his own terms, I don't believe Gary Davis would ever contend that he was not a sinner. . .it's just that his faith saved him.  Whether we believe this or not is not the point--he believed it.  The subject of his snide comments comes up over and over again.  Can we agree to get over it, once and for all?  He was human and not always admirable or likeable.
all best,
Johnm   

Indeed.  Well put...
If I don't meet you no more in this world, I'll meet you in the next one so don't be late...

Offline dj

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Re: Rev. Davis proposes to give Mrs. Cotten some guitar lessons.
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 03:07:45 AM »
Quote
The subject of his snide comments comes up over and over again.  Can we agree to get over it, once and for all?  He was human and not always admirable or likeable.

The only difference between "famous" people like Rev. Davis and Prince Charles and us mere mortals is that we don't have someone writing down, remembering, and disseminating every stupid thing we've ever said or done.  Which is why I never want to be famous - I say and do a lot of stupid things. 

Though thinking about it now, I wonder if the reason we humans are so drawn to stories of the "greats" being stupid is a bit of self defense.  Thinking about how stupid we were being boastful and hitting on some woman and then saying "Hey, maybe I'm not a complete idiot, Rev. Gary Davis was a great man and he did it too." 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 03:12:26 AM by dj »

 


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