Topic: Frankie or Albert?

[Rivers]

It's confusing for sure. When the judge walks with Frankie "side-by-side", and tells her she's "gonna be justified", that to me sounds like redemption. Justified in shooting Albert. I don't see how you could interpret it differently.

Then there's the final verse, which is strikingly similar, at least in dramatic effect, to Hurt's Stack O' Lee Blues, where he says, if my memory serves me correctly:

Standing on the gallows, Stack O'Lee did curse
The Judge said boys let's kill him, before he kills one of us.

I long ago concluded John conflated the two songs for dramatic effect. So I'm in the b) camp.

[dj]

"gonna be justified" could be idiomatic for "going to feel the hand of justice".  I don't know that the word "justified" was ever used that way, but it's possible.

[Rivers]

True, interesting theory, had not occurred to me obviously. But what speaks against this is the whole song is set up to demonstrate what a jerk Albert was.

If you follow my reasoning, the judge, at her trial for murder, confides in Frankie and quietly agrees with her. I always think it's a nice touch, very droll. Then the 'gloom and doom from the tomb' sets in, which I ascribe to being inherited as a 'killer last verse' idea, probably grafted-on from Stack O' Lee Blues.

As you imply dj, if we could find other uses of 'justified' meaning 'feel the hand of justice', that would tend to clinch it for the a) camp.

[Slack]

I'm in the B camp.  "Justified" is vernacular for Jusitfy.  Gonna be justified, IMO, means Frankie had a good or legitimate reason for offing Albert. 

Which is not the usual case regarding murder, but what makes this a fascinating and enduring story, -- that folks sympathized with the killer.

[Rivers]

The song works in deep mysterious ways. The more vengeful Frankie gets the more we like her. In some versions there are lines describing her running down to the pawn shop, kicking down the pawn shop door, trading her diamond wedding ring for a blue steel .44.

And later, she's looking down through the smoke of her gun sayin' "I just wanna see you die!". The effect on me has always been "Go Frankie!"

[Slack]

The effect on me has always been "Go Frankie!"

Exactly.  That's why the song has endured.  This is no usual murder case - Albert was a SOB and deserved it! (Speaking within that time period of course.  Plus, she was probably really good looking. )

[Johnm]

I agree Albert sounds like a jerk, but I find myself siding with interpretation A, just because I'm hard pressed to think of a Country Blues that portrays judges and their decisions in a sympathetic light.  I think when the judge tells Frankie she's gonna be justified he's deriving pleasure at the prospect of putting the hammer down--a mean SOB, in other words.
All best,
Johnm

[Rivers]

That's a good point, I can't think of any sympathetic portrayals of judges in the genre either.

At this point I don't know what to think, and this thread has made me think about it more than I ever thought I would.

I'm still an option b) voter though at this point, perhaps because it's a long held, fond interpretation of mine, and I want it to be so. It might be interesting to dig into all the earliest recorded versions (and accounts thereof), we may unearth some more clues. We should look hard at anything recorded before MJH's recording. Folk blues archaeology, so to speak.

[Slack]

That's what is so interesting about the lyrics of so much of this music - like "Last Kind Words" - it is open to the imagination.

I agree with you to a certain extent Johnm - that CB does not normally portray Judges in a sympathetic light.  But the song endures because it is not a normal circumstance (the only other example I can think of at the moment is The Titanic, because it is the 100th anniversary - an exceptional boat sinking.) My feeling is that the song endured because of an exceptional judge.... and/or exceptional feelings/sympathy among the black community.  A white judge presiding over a black murder would not have a pony in that race either way - why would he not rule with the feelings of the black community? The common case would be that Frankie would have been hung for murder.  But something out of the ordinary happened. What was it?  a lovers murder? or getting away with murder?  Frankie died presumably of natural causes, in Portland.  So I think it is the latter, which is the reason the song endured.  She got away with murder.

[pkeane]

Great & fascinating discussion!  I've been thinking about this exact issue lately....  Paul Geremia has been performing Frankie lately (he played here in Austin just a couple weeks ago) and his takes, which he talks about introducing the song, is that the line "Frankie and judge walked out on the stand, walked out side by side..." suggests that the are incahoots, or actually in a relationship already.  He said it's what has got him interested in playing the the song again -- the key twist to the whole thing.  (He does a real nice version too).

Personally, I'm not convinced of that interpretation (although it's intriguing).  To me it's all about the hand of the law providing justice (gonna be justified) and Frankie being hung for the crime ("last words I heard...").  I love the way she's defiant to the end, proud that "I done laid old Albert down...".  There are a whole lot of little twists & turns of phrase ("stroll back out o' the smoke of my gun, let me see is Albert dyin" -- yow!) not to mention one of the all-time great guitar parts to keep me dearly attached to the song.   

It's a great thread, though -- very interesting to hear the different takes on it.

--Peter

[ScottN]

Not that its definitive for either side but executions of women were (are) pretty rare...between 1900 and 1928 there were only 6 women executed in the entire United States (per the Death Penalty Information Center). 

Then again, a rare event like that might be more likely to inspire a popular song...

[dj]

executions of women were (are) pretty rare...between 1900 and 1928 there were only 6 women executed in the entire United States

Thanks for that info, Scott.  It's reminded me of my grandparent's story of Lizzie Borden.  I don't know how many of you have heard of Lizzie Borden, but she was a woman from Fall River Massachusetts who, in the 1890s, was accused of murdering her father and stepmother with an axe.  She was acquitted of the crime. 

Anyway, my mother's family was from New Bedford, right next to Fall River.  When we were young, we learned the rhyme:

Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks
When she saw what she had done
She gave her father forty one

I remember my grandparents' generation teaching us the rhyme, and telling us that Lizzie Borden was guilty, but that they couldn't convict her because she was a woman and you just didn't execute women.  But that the rhyme was a way of making sure that everyone knew she was guilty.

Maybe the same thing is working on some level in Frankie And Albert, and the song became popular as a way of accusing someone who was known to be guilty but who had been found innocent because of her sex.

On the other hand, it's more likely that the song survived because it has a catchy tune and first-rate lyrics.

[Kokomo O]

Regarding the notion that judges aren't often accorded sympathetic treatment in rural blues songs, I suspect that's true, but I wouldn't say it's never true. Consider the Dehlia/All My Friends Are Gone songs, where the judge, especially if you accept David Bromberg's view of the tune, seems to have a preexisting relationship with Dehlia and is really bummed that Cutty has murdered her. That judge isn't cutting Cutty any slack at all.

Enough of this, fascinating though it might be. I've spent an enormous amount of time reading about Frankie & Albert, and then about Hattie Carroll and her killer, from the same author. Time to play.