collapse

* Member Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
Set down to the table, ate up everything I could found. Would have ate the dishes if someone hadn't been around - Me And My Tapeworm, Sylvester Weaver 1927

Author Topic: Frankie or Albert?  (Read 2409 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline colm kill paul

  • Member
  • Posts: 146
Frankie or Albert?
« on: April 11, 2012, 02:35:34 PM »
Folks,

I've been singing MJH's version of "Frankie and Albert" as per his "Legend" album (Rounder CD 1100) and John Miller's transcription of same on his DVD "The Guitar of MJH Vol 1".

Verse seven of the lyric see's Frankie in court to be "Justified" and verse eight has a burial.

What is the correct interpretation of these verses? Is it a) Frankie gets the death sentence for murder and is buried or b) Frankie was justified in her actions and lives to see Albert laid down in lonely ground.( She was a good girl after all...everyone knows that  :))

I'd thought it was option "a" but now I'm hearing "b". Just curious to hear what the general position is on this. Thanks Colm

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 02:53:01 PM »
Hi Colm,
I used to think the lyric meant that the judge thought Frankie was justified in killing Albert, but have come to feel that he is telling her cold-heartedly that justice will be served, that is, that she will be condemned and sentenced for killing Albert.  It's interesting that the real life Frankie was not executed, but ended her days in a poorhouse near Portland, Oregon!
All best,
Johnm

Offline banjochris

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 2578
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 08:45:36 PM »
I think it's definitely B, because first, the real Frankie wasn't executed, as John says, but the line about Frankie and the judge walking side by side implies that the judge is "with" Frankie and speaking intimately (I don't mean that with any sexual connotation) -- the judge is telling her not to worry, everything will be all right.

Offline lindy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1241
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 09:44:09 PM »

I'm in the "A" camp for three reasons:

"Judge says to Frankie, 'Girl, you're gonna be justified'" seems to mean "You're gonna pay the price for your actions."

and

"Dark was the night, cold was the ground" suggests a nighttime hanging/execution (a common practice).

and

"The last words I heard Frankie say" implies her last words on this earth.

The first line (what the judge says) is by far the most ambiguous.

Lindy

Offline colm kill paul

  • Member
  • Posts: 146
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 12:33:36 AM »
I've been surprised at how my performance of this song feels different depending on how I interpret the story. I know this would be intangible to any listener but it's made me aware of an internal process I'm running when singing...it's interesting.

I didn't know till JohnM posted above that there was a true story attached to this tune and that Frankie was acquitted in real life. This would seem to weigh heavily toward the B interpretation being the intended lyric. It must have been big news and worthy of capturing by the bards and songsmiths.

But...The more I sing this tune the more I'm inclined to see the line "Frankie and the Judge walked out on the stand" as Frankie and the Judge walked out onto the Gallows Stand as opposed to a court room stand i.e. the Judge walked her up to the noose...pretty dramatic stuff. So that's definitely the A interpretation.

I guess I'll go with the A interpretation as it appears an open choice and I guess I'm drawn to the darker side...

Looks like I'll need to book some time on the shrinks coach if I ponder this one much futher  ;D. (Thanks for the assist folks) Colm

Offline yogi

  • Member
  • Posts: 39
  • yogi
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 03:50:43 AM »
Hi all, first time poster here!
Check this story out for reference. Of course it may be full of errors, I wouldn't know but if so maybe some of the knowledgeable participants here will point that out.
http://www.planetslade.com/frankie-and-johnny1.html
 /Yogi
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 03:52:07 AM by yogi »

Offline colm kill paul

  • Member
  • Posts: 146
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 04:21:38 AM »
Quote
"I went to trial on Friday the 13th, and the bad luck omens didn't go against me. Why, the judge even gave me back my gun."


This is a great piece to read and really appropriate for today Friday 13th! So taking it at face value version B is back on top then!

Thanks Yogi and Welcome! Colm
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:38:03 AM by colm kill paul »

Offline uncle bud

  • Member
  • Posts: 8306
  • Rank amateur
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 07:30:35 AM »
On Hurt's version from the Friends of Old-Time Music boxed set, he sings a verse towards the end that I don't recall appearing elsewhere.

Said, turn me over, mother, turn me over slow
It may be the last time, you won't turn me over more
He's my --

Don't know that it helps with the meaning, though it suggests Frankie thinks it might be the end.

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 09:08:15 AM »
Hi all,
The question is further complicated by the fact that John Hurt may or may not have known that Frankie was not executed, or even that the story was based on an actual event.  In the song, I've always assumed that she was executed, and that the judge more or less said in advance that that would be the outcome. 

Re the question of Frankie's eventual fate, it's interesting to look at the lyrics to Joe Callicott's version--he doesn't even discuss the issue.  (It's also great just to hear Joe sing and play the song.)

All best,
Johnm

Offline colm kill paul

  • Member
  • Posts: 146
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
Folks,

This is the amazing WeenieCampbell at it's best! It's is so rewarding to get all this information and context around what I thought was a little intrigue of my own. This type of information exchange really builds foundations around this great music.

Brilliant!

Colm

Offline Bunker Hill

  • Member
  • Posts: 2828
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 11:37:55 AM »
I thought that this link http://www.planetslade.com/frankie-and-johnny1.html had been drawn to our attention in the past but damned if I can find it - otherwise I would have resurrected it. This might need to be relocated elsewhere.

Offline Richard

  • Member
  • Posts: 2416
  • Drove this for 25 years!
    • weekendblues
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 12:06:56 PM »
Colm, from all this do we assume you will be performing the said song for us in a week?
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline yogi

  • Member
  • Posts: 39
  • yogi
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 12:13:20 PM »
Thanks Colm, I've asked the same question myself.
The story is evidently that she was acquitted in court but who knows what the songwriters were thinking when they wrote the lyrics. Information was inaccessible back then and many people were relying on hearsaying.

I'm sorry if I wasn't supposed to post the link in this thread. To make matters worse I'll post anotrher link, if you read the text in the previous link you probably spotted "Immortalia (1927)". In case someone hasn't seen the book yet you'll find it here: http://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1920s/1927_immortalia_(various)/index.htm

 /Yogi

Offline Gumbo

  • Member
  • Posts: 870
  • So Papa climbed up on top of the house
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 12:19:26 PM »
To make matters worse I'll post anotrher link

Yay!! ;)

Offline colm kill paul

  • Member
  • Posts: 146
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 02:28:49 PM »
Richard,

It is in honour of the Euroweenie bash that I've been toiling on getting Frankie and Albert into shape. Very astute of you Mr R.  8). Hopefully it will be alright on the night. Guess I'm in trouble now with this pre publicity...dooh! >:( colm

Offline Rivers

  • Tech Support
  • Member
  • Posts: 7274
  • I like chicken pie
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 05:11:16 PM »
It's confusing for sure. When the judge walks with Frankie "side-by-side", and tells her she's "gonna be justified", that to me sounds like redemption. Justified in shooting Albert. I don't see how you could interpret it differently.

Then there's the final verse, which is strikingly similar, at least in dramatic effect, to Hurt's Stack O' Lee Blues, where he says, if my memory serves me correctly:

Standing on the gallows, Stack O'Lee did curse
The Judge said boys let's kill him, before he kills one of us.

I long ago concluded John conflated the two songs for dramatic effect. So I'm in the b) camp.

Offline dj

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 2833
  • Howdy!
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2012, 05:20:21 PM »
"gonna be justified" could be idiomatic for "going to feel the hand of justice".  I don't know that the word "justified" was ever used that way, but it's possible.

Offline Rivers

  • Tech Support
  • Member
  • Posts: 7274
  • I like chicken pie
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2012, 05:27:52 PM »
True, interesting theory, had not occurred to me obviously. But what speaks against this is the whole song is set up to demonstrate what a jerk Albert was.

If you follow my reasoning, the judge, at her trial for murder, confides in Frankie and quietly agrees with her. I always think it's a nice touch, very droll. Then the 'gloom and doom from the tomb' sets in, which I ascribe to being inherited as a 'killer last verse' idea, probably grafted-on from Stack O' Lee Blues.

As you imply dj, if we could find other uses of 'justified' meaning 'feel the hand of justice', that would tend to clinch it for the a) camp.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 05:32:08 PM by Rivers »

Offline Slack

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 9213
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2012, 05:43:06 PM »
I'm in the B camp.  "Justified" is vernacular for Jusitfy.  Gonna be justified, IMO, means Frankie had a good or legitimate reason for offing Albert. 

Which is not the usual case regarding murder, but what makes this a fascinating and enduring story, -- that folks sympathized with the killer.

Offline Rivers

  • Tech Support
  • Member
  • Posts: 7274
  • I like chicken pie
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 05:59:21 PM »
The song works in deep mysterious ways. The more vengeful Frankie gets the more we like her. In some versions there are lines describing her running down to the pawn shop, kicking down the pawn shop door, trading her diamond wedding ring for a blue steel .44.

And later, she's looking down through the smoke of her gun sayin' "I just wanna see you die!". The effect on me has always been "Go Frankie!"

Offline Slack

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 9213
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2012, 06:14:19 PM »
Quote
The effect on me has always been "Go Frankie!"

Exactly.  That's why the song has endured.  This is no usual murder case - Albert was a SOB and deserved it! (Speaking within that time period of course.  Plus, she was probably really good looking. :D )
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:17:13 PM by Slack »

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2012, 07:52:54 PM »
I agree Albert sounds like a jerk, but I find myself siding with interpretation A, just because I'm hard pressed to think of a Country Blues that portrays judges and their decisions in a sympathetic light.  I think when the judge tells Frankie she's gonna be justified he's deriving pleasure at the prospect of putting the hammer down--a mean SOB, in other words.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Rivers

  • Tech Support
  • Member
  • Posts: 7274
  • I like chicken pie
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2012, 08:28:42 PM »
That's a good point, I can't think of any sympathetic portrayals of judges in the genre either.

At this point I don't know what to think, and this thread has made me think about it more than I ever thought I would.

I'm still an option b) voter though at this point, perhaps because it's a long held, fond interpretation of mine, and I want it to be so. It might be interesting to dig into all the earliest recorded versions (and accounts thereof), we may unearth some more clues. We should look hard at anything recorded before MJH's recording. Folk blues archaeology, so to speak.

Offline Slack

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 9213
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2012, 08:45:57 PM »
That's what is so interesting about the lyrics of so much of this music - like "Last Kind Words" - it is open to the imagination.

I agree with you to a certain extent Johnm - that CB does not normally portray Judges in a sympathetic light.  But the song endures because it is not a normal circumstance (the only other example I can think of at the moment is The Titanic, because it is the 100th anniversary - an exceptional boat sinking.) My feeling is that the song endured because of an exceptional judge.... and/or exceptional feelings/sympathy among the black community.  A white judge presiding over a black murder would not have a pony in that race either way - why would he not rule with the feelings of the black community? The common case would be that Frankie would have been hung for murder.  But something out of the ordinary happened. What was it?  a lovers murder? or getting away with murder?  Frankie died presumably of natural causes, in Portland.  So I think it is the latter, which is the reason the song endured.  She got away with murder.

Offline pkeane

  • Member
  • Posts: 69
    • PeterKeane.com
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2012, 09:56:25 PM »
Great & fascinating discussion!  I've been thinking about this exact issue lately....  Paul Geremia has been performing Frankie lately (he played here in Austin just a couple weeks ago) and his takes, which he talks about introducing the song, is that the line "Frankie and judge walked out on the stand, walked out side by side..." suggests that the are incahoots, or actually in a relationship already.  He said it's what has got him interested in playing the the song again -- the key twist to the whole thing.  (He does a real nice version too).

Personally, I'm not convinced of that interpretation (although it's intriguing).  To me it's all about the hand of the law providing justice (gonna be justified) and Frankie being hung for the crime ("last words I heard...").  I love the way she's defiant to the end, proud that "I done laid old Albert down...".  There are a whole lot of little twists & turns of phrase ("stroll back out o' the smoke of my gun, let me see is Albert dyin" -- yow!) not to mention one of the all-time great guitar parts to keep me dearly attached to the song.   

It's a great thread, though -- very interesting to hear the different takes on it.

--Peter

Offline ScottN

  • Member
  • Posts: 309
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2012, 11:56:11 PM »
Not that its definitive for either side but executions of women were (are) pretty rare...between 1900 and 1928 there were only 6 women executed in the entire United States (per the Death Penalty Information Center). 

Then again, a rare event like that might be more likely to inspire a popular song...

Offline dj

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 2833
  • Howdy!
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2012, 06:18:20 AM »
Quote
executions of women were (are) pretty rare...between 1900 and 1928 there were only 6 women executed in the entire United States

Thanks for that info, Scott.  It's reminded me of my grandparent's story of Lizzie Borden.  I don't know how many of you have heard of Lizzie Borden, but she was a woman from Fall River Massachusetts who, in the 1890s, was accused of murdering her father and stepmother with an axe.  She was acquitted of the crime. 

Anyway, my mother's family was from New Bedford, right next to Fall River.  When we were young, we learned the rhyme:

Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks
When she saw what she had done
She gave her father forty one

I remember my grandparents' generation teaching us the rhyme, and telling us that Lizzie Borden was guilty, but that they couldn't convict her because she was a woman and you just didn't execute women.  But that the rhyme was a way of making sure that everyone knew she was guilty.

Maybe the same thing is working on some level in Frankie And Albert, and the song became popular as a way of accusing someone who was known to be guilty but who had been found innocent because of her sex.

On the other hand, it's more likely that the song survived because it has a catchy tune and first-rate lyrics.

Offline Kokomo O

  • Member
  • Posts: 194
  • Howdy!
Re: Frankie or Albert?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2012, 10:17:28 AM »
Regarding the notion that judges aren't often accorded sympathetic treatment in rural blues songs, I suspect that's true, but I wouldn't say it's never true. Consider the Dehlia/All My Friends Are Gone songs, where the judge, especially if you accept David Bromberg's view of the tune, seems to have a preexisting relationship with Dehlia and is really bummed that Cutty has murdered her. That judge isn't cutting Cutty any slack at all.

Enough of this, fascinating though it might be. I've spent an enormous amount of time reading about Frankie & Albert, and then about Hattie Carroll and her killer, from the same author. Time to play.

 


anything
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal