Topic: String tension then and now

[nixpix]

While I'm trying to decide what string tension I prefer on my guitar, I'm trying to figure out what the tension and gauges of strings were back in the 1920's & 30's. I know our heroes are said to have used very heavy strings. Anyone have experience in measuring the diameters in an old set of strings? Many of the guitars back then were shorter than the 25 1/2" scale common now so maybe they could better handle thicker strings. Also, since they used round cores the tension might have been slightly less. What do you think?

[Richard]

Where are you - UK or US?

If you were UK I would suggest giving Malcom of Newtone strings a call who makes loads of round core strings suitable for the older instrument - will also post to you.

What guitar is it you are dealing with?

[nixpix]

I'm in the US - Los Angeles actually. I have a Collings C10 25.5" scale with the rectangular bridge. Bill strongly recommends not using anything thicker than lights on this guitar unless it has the optional belly bridge - not enough glue surface otherwise. I found a local place that Steve James uses, www.guadalupecustomstrings.com and they hand make roundcore strings. I currently have a medium set on my guitar. They sound great and respond "broken in" as soon as they're installed. I've heard of Newtone, but have yet to order some.

I'm trying to find a set that will facilitate Blind Blake playing the best - projection, speed, and maximum response from my guitar. When I play Eddie Lang style with a flatpick, the mediums are great. But maybe the guitar would be more responsive with lighter strings. One negative thing I notice with light gauge strings is that the high e and b strings sound a little thin.

[Rivers]

I may be completely wrong here but wouldn't a short scale instrument be better for this? I was under the impression string loading is less. Please feel free to correct me anyone, I'm really not sure of which I speak.

[Parlor Picker]

As I have mentioned on this forum before, I swear by Newtone strings, so can only endorse Richard's comments.  Not only are they suited to the older-style instruments, they also sound great and last for ages.  I use them on all my guitars but one, namely my Larriv?e Parlor which seems to work better with more tension, especially when tuned down to open D or G.  I currently have D'Addarios on it, but I must say they don't last as well as the Newtones, nor do they sound as good.  I'm sure an internet search will find either a North American supplier or one in the UK prepared to ship over the pond.

Incidentally I was talking to Steve James just over a month ago and apparently he freaked Bill Collings out by fitting very heavy strings to his guitar.  Collings was frightened they might damage the instrument, but they did nothing of the sort (shows what good guitars they are).  Steve has no time for the lighter gauge strings (what some people call "hairdresser's strings"!!).

Fellow-Weenie blueshome is not convinced they only had heavier gauge strings back in the 20s and 30s.  Perhaps he'll comment further on this.

[nixpix]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to order some Newtones for my C10 and National Tricone. I've found a couple of suppliers here in North America. I would love to hear what blueshome has to say. I'm suspicious myself of there being only "heavy" gauge strings in the past. Here's why:

• What about mandolins and violins? They had to have had thinner strings than the relatively thicker guitar strings.
  
• The gut strings that steel strings replaced must have had some bearing on how people would accept steel. I mean, a modern light gauge set of steel strings has considerably more tension than a gut set.
• Why would anyone purposely torture themselves with heavy strings? I've found that increased volume with increased tension follows the law of diminishing returns after a given point - especially with the lightly constructed guitars of those days.

[Rivers]

Stiffest strings I ever tried were called Snarling Dogs, heavy gauge. Fantastic tone. Completely wrecked the '60s J50 Gibson I put them on but it was great while it lasted.

[blueshome]

I'm unconvinced that strings pre-war (or even up to the 60's) were necessarily heavier. I am sure a range of gauges were used. My evidence for light strings being available is;

Banjo and mandolin strings in light gauges. There has been little change in the technology of wire making for a very long time. I am aware that hex cores and bronze were introduced post-war and this and eases manufacture.

The need for light strings on early steel-strung guitars

The tendency to use a lighter set with an unwound 3rd.

Remaining strings and packets - I remember seeing pictures of packets from pre-war - 11's for Spanish guitar 13's for Hawaiian.

The tendency of players to tune up in open tunings (especially for lap style)

I am sure then, as now, a player would choose a set to suit his style etc, if they were available. More likely though, he would put on what he could get hold of and hope they would not break.

I think that there has been a fashion in the last few years to suggest that heavy gauges are essential - in part I think Bob Brozman`is responsible with his suggestions for resonator guitars - also maybe it's a macho thing - my string's bigger than yours! I really think it must come down to what suits each player/guitar combination.

Personally I use Newtones on my reso's -15-58 nickel for the FR triplate to assist sliding in D; 13-56 Ph-Br on the Style O for picking in standard and sliding in G.

For my Sterling parlour I use silk & steel (11-?) and this is a really loud guitar.

Phil

[dj]

I am aware that hex cores and bronze were introduced post-war and this ... eases manufacture.

Does this mean that "steel" guitar strings before World War II really were steel?  Or what we'd call "nickel" today?  If so, this raises some questions:

 - Were the steel windings similar/identical to the windings on present-day electric guitar strings, or something else?

 - With all the interest in old guitars (and new guitars made to old designs), why does there seem to be much less interest in old-type strings for use on those guitars?  Are they sonically very different from modern bronze strings?  I'd imagine they would be.  Do they not last as long?

 - Has anyone here experimented with steel/nickel strings on an acoustic guitar?

[Muddyroads]

  - Has anyone here experimented with steel/nickle strings on an acoustic guitar?

I have used nickel on my Larivee OM-1 for a long time.  DR Pure Blues heaviest set they make which are relatively light.  They have lasted forever.  Also have used Ernie Ball nickel and the D'Aquisto Tony Rice which are nickel and have a 13 - 59 thickness to them and they work great too.

I just got the neck reset on my 1949 0018 and the luthier told me not to run anything heavier than lights on it.  Bummer, it always sounded good with mediums and had needed the neck reset since I first played in it the 1970's.  I inherited it about 5 years ago and don't want to ruin it but...now that neck is reset...any opinions?

Mud

[nixpix]

Muddy, what was the reason for using only lights on your 0018? The bracing, bridge footing, etc? I changed my medium round core strings out yesterday for light gauge John Pearse. While it seems to have lost some volume, the tone seems better - like the top is vibrating more freely. I definitely think that light strings sound great for most flattops - even loud! I played a Supertone parlor with lights (maybe extra lights?) and that sucker filled the whole store with sound and forced a plugged-in jazz guitar player to turn off!

[nixpix]

Here's an update to this discussion and hopefully it will help us come to accurate conclusions. I visited my mom's house as I remembered that over 10 years ago an elderly widow gave me her husband's guitar strings. He played hawaiian guitar and I remember her showing me his 1930's Gibson flattop. I wish I knew what it was then as I would have offered to buy it from her. Anyway, today I found the strings. The box they are in is orange with the old "Gibson" script and say "Mona-Steel Strings" made in Kalmazoo. If you have the book "Gibson Guitars: 100 years of an American Icon" a picture is on page 138. I took my own picture for you and it is attached.

Each box has 1/2 dozen unused, still coiled strings. Each side label says they're for "Hawaiian Guitar." Here are the measurements of the three gauges I have: "E or 6th" measures .056"; "E or 4th" measures .033"; and "B or 2nd" measures a whopping .021". I called Gibson (forgive me ) to see if they had any info to help me with. The only thing that they did for me was verify my suspicion that since these were "Hawiian" strings they are possibly heavier than standard acoustic strings of the time.

Anyone have an idea of how old these may be? They are round core strings which implies pre 1960's. They have the old "Gibson" script, just like on the L-00 headstocks.



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[blueshome]

dj

The cores of all metal strings are steel. the windings on nickel strings are nickel alloy. I think electric strings are similar, nickel being used for its magnetic properties.

I use nickel strings on my triplate, they are warmer (deader?) sounding than Ph-Br and seem to outlast them about 3 times. also they have a "softer" feel.

[GhostRider]

Hey Nixpix:

That style Gibson logo was used from about 1932 to 1946.

Mona-steel strings are actually made from monel, a nickle-copper alloy. I have found references to Mona-steel strings produced by Gibson at least into the '70's.

Monel was invented in Canada in 1902.

Ther are many references to Mona-steel strings being greatly prefered by mandolin players.

Alex

[rpg51]

I saw a chart on the net not long ago that said the difference in force on the bridge between long scale and short scale is pretty minimal.

I think some guitars sound a lot better with heavier stings, but other don't.  Depends on how light the top is.  I have a guitar now that does much better with lights than it does with mediums.  It is a very light build and I think that might have something to do with it.