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The piano may do for lovesick girls who lace themselves to skeletons, and lunch on chalk, pickles, and slate pencils. But give me the banjo... When you want genuine music - music that will come right home to you like a bad quarter, suffuse your system like strychnine whiskey . . . ramify your whole constitution like the measles, and break out on your hide like the pin-feather pimples on a picked goose - when you want all this, just smash your piano, and invoke the glory-beaming banjo! - Mark Twain, Early Tales and Sketches, Vol 2 (1864-65)

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 244516 times)

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Offline joe paul

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #255 on: September 09, 2014, 04:02:48 AM »
Ok, I think Johnny Shines is playing in the A position, tuned up a semitone or capoed at the first fret, and the shuffle movement at :19 -  :23 is on the A chord, going from second to fourth fret on the d string.
The run on the turn-around sounds like the open 1st string, 2nd string 4th fret, 3rd fret then a nasty little bend up on the first fret with the open first sounding. Then 2nd string first fret, third fret, first fret and down to the root note at the 2nd fret  with the 3rd string.
I think the triplets at 1:33 are the third fret on the 1st string and the fifth fret on the 2nd string, with a slide coming up on the b string to get there.
I still haven't found the concluding chords, damn.
It's a pleasure finally joining in with this, thanks !

Gordon
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 04:18:32 AM by joe paul »

Offline Gumbo

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #256 on: September 09, 2014, 06:54:19 AM »
I tuned to an open A position EAEAC#E and capo'd on 1 to sound in Bb

fret positions relative to the capo:
0:19-0:23 5th and 4th strings  open and fretting the 4th at 2

0:39-0:43 hopefully looks something like this
-   -  o  -  - -  - -  - o
1 2h -  2 1 o  - o 1h- 1 o
-   -   -  -  -  -  - -  -  - -  - o

1:33 triplets are at 1st string 5th fret and 2nd string 6th fret (relative to capo on 1)

I'm still puzzling over the closing chords

Offline One-Eyed Ross

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #257 on: September 09, 2014, 08:01:57 AM »
I've been so busy getting high school football and soccer concessions up and running, I haven't had much time lately...so here is what I have so far:

B flat, but instead of A position I have in in G (standard tuning, capo 3).   I think the bass notes sound right this way (but willing to admit my ears aren't as good as they could be, which is why I do this exercise!)

The rest of it I haven't had time to figure out...next week should be slower for me, so I'll keep plugging away at these.
SSG, USA, Ret

She looked like a horse eating an apple through a wire fence.

Offline mr mando

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #258 on: September 09, 2014, 08:33:05 AM »
Q: What playing position/tuning did Johnny Shines use to play the song?
A: Spanish at Bb. It's definitely a position which lends itself to the boogie bass and still has the low V available for a bass note. A position in standard would be another possibility, but there are some spots where I seem to hear the third of the I chord ringing, which is a sound you don't get in in A pos/std.
Q: Where is Johnny fretting the shuffle back-up that he plays from :19--:23?
A: He fingers a basic chord x-0-0-0-3-3 (with ring finger and pinky) and rocks back and forth between open fourth and second fret/fourth string.
Q: Where does Johnny fret the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40--:42?
A: he starts on beat two with a triplet on the second string: 3-2-1 on beat three a broken triplet: string 3/fret 3-string 2 open, on beat four a triplet (string/fret): 2/1-2/0-3/0
Q: Where does Johnny fret the triplet fills at 1:33--1:35?
A: First and second string third fret, then starting to rock back and forth between 3rd fret and 5th fret on first string
Q: Where does Johnny fret the concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48, and what are they?
A: all strings open, then a barre chord at the fifth fret, then a barre chord at the third fret, all strings open again and then x-0-2-3-0-0 to x-0-3-4-0-0. The chords are C (IV chord), Bb (bIII chord), G, and G7 (with a chromatic lead in).


BTW, I'm sorry I missed the last puzzle. I had listened to all three songs, but had no opportunity to sit down and play along. Just from the sound of it, I recognised A position for the third tune. I've got to admit that I first thought open G (high bass) for the first and D position standard tuning for the second song.

For the last puzzle before that, I have to find a way how to work on the problem that I was off a third from the correct positions. I just didn't hear it correctly. Maybe I should just listen to lots of guitar/piano duets.

Offline blueshome

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #259 on: September 09, 2014, 08:50:27 AM »
I got it in Spanish and the boogie bass but in the absence of a guitar no further.

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #260 on: September 09, 2014, 09:15:28 AM »
I?m sure you?re all right, as Johnny Shines played in Spanish a lot, but just to be different (and without hope of getting it right), I?m going to say:

What playing position/tuning did Johnny Shines use to play the song?

 C standard tuned down to B

 Where is Johnny fretting the shuffle back-up that he plays from :19?:23?
Rocking his second finger from second fret 5th string to 2nd fret 4th string

 Where does Johnny fret the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40?:42?

Descends from fret 3 1st string via frets 2 and 1 to open 1st string then a bend on third fret of 2nd string to first fret 2nd string, then 2nd fret third string back to first fret second string.

 Where does Johnny fret the triplet fills at 1:33?1:35?

Third fret first  string

 Where does Johnny fret the concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48, and what are they?

First position C chord, then F, F6 (bend on 3rd fret 2nd string) then back to C7

Offline joe paul

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #261 on: September 09, 2014, 11:07:45 AM »
Ooops... best tune my guitar to spanish and give it another shot !

Offline Old Man Ned

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #262 on: September 09, 2014, 12:11:27 PM »
In agreement with the folks who go for Open G, capo at 3rd fret and in agreement with Mr Mando on the shuffle back-up at 19--:23 and  the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40--:42.

For the triplet fills at 1:33--1:35 I'm hearing 3 triplets played on first 2 strings barred at the 3rd fret then a run 5fret, 3rd fret on first string, 3rd fret 2nd string, open 3rd string.  The concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48 I need more time on as they sound really weird and wonderful but what I've got so far is the 3rd, 4th and 6th strings barred at the 5th fret, then moved down to the 3rd fret and finishing with a 4th string 3rd fret, then open 3rd, 4th and 6th strings.  But there's more to it than that I'm sure.

I was lucky enough to see Johnny Shines many years ago at the 100 club in London.  Such a powerful voice.

Offline Johnm

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #263 on: September 09, 2014, 11:35:35 PM »
Hi all,
It doesn't look like there will be any more responses on Johnny Shine's "Tennessee Woman Blues", so I'll post the answers to the questions about how the tune was played.
   * Playing position/tuning for the song was C position in standard tuning (though tuned a bit low).  Kudos to Prof. Scratchy, who was the only responder to identify the position correctly this time.
   * The playing position that Johnny Shine used to play the shuffle at :19--:23 requires a pretty big or limber hand.  He uses the same position Papa Charlie Jackson used to play Bb, but moved up two frets, going from X-3-5-5-5-5 to X-3-7-5-5-5 and back to X-3-5-5-5-5.  I reckon the fingering he used was index finger fretting the third fret of the fifth string, third finger barring the top four strings at the fifth fret and little finger fretting the seventh fret of the fourth string where that comes in.  If you re-listen to that section, listen for the highest-pitched note that Johnny Shines plays on those chords--it is a sixth, and it sort of "comes along for the ride" with that long ring finger barre at the fifth fret, on the first string.
   * The little turn-around run that Johnny Shines plays from :40-:42 starts on beat 2 of the eleventh bar of the form.  On that beat two, he plays a descending triplet on the first string, from the third to the second to the first fret there, as Scratchy had it.  On beat three, he does the Lemon Jefferson trick of playing the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string more or less simultaneously, followed by the open first string on the + of the third beat.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the first fret of the first string to the open first string, and then to the first fret of the second string.  On beat one of the twelfth measure, he re-hits the first fret of the second string, going to a G7 on the first two strings, 0-1, starting on the + of that beat.
   * The triplets he plays from 1:33-1:35 are located at the eight fret of the second string and sixth fret of the first string, so that the eighth fret is the fifth of the C chord and the sixth fret is the bVII of the C chord.
   * The chords he plays at the end of the song, at 2:44-2:48 are F, X-X-3-2-1-1, Fm7 or Ab6, X-X-1-1-1-1, C, X-X-5-5-5-X, B, X-X-4-4-4-X, and C, X-X-5-5-5-X

Thanks to all of you who participated, and it's great to see people participating for the first time.  When I first found this song on youtube last week, I was really surprised to hear Johnny Shines playing in C, since I never thought of him as being a C-type player.  I think a lot of what he plays in some of his runs here is reminiscent of Bill Broonzy's playing in C, though much rougher.  It's neat to be surprised by someone you thought you had pegged.
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 11:38:51 PM by Johnm »

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #264 on: September 10, 2014, 01:03:24 AM »
At last! Got one right! I saw Johnny Shines many times in the early 70s and never saw him play in C. However, on Kurt Hriczusa's recently unearthed home video of him playing in Vienna, he does have a go at a ragtime progression in C. What took me in the direction of C on this one was the similarity, in a couple of places (and with a wide stretch of imagination) to bits of Memphis Minnie's backing on Chickasaw Train. As others have said, didn't Johnny have the most amazing voice?

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk


Offline Old Man Ned

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #265 on: September 10, 2014, 04:11:35 AM »
Wow! C, tuned low!  I'm gob smacked......I mean he looks such an Open G type of guy! :-)  Really, I thought I had this one nailed apart from the last chords.  Amazing. Thanks again, this is a real education.
All the best,
L

Offline Gumbo

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #266 on: September 10, 2014, 05:14:27 AM »
Bravo Professor! I don't recall hearing anything to make it seem like it was tuned low!

Offline David Kaatz

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #267 on: September 10, 2014, 10:20:58 AM »
Wow.
John, I was going to argue with an expert, but I stopped myself to check your solution. In seems much easier to play in A position standard tuning, capoed at first fret as a few people suggested. I was going post that, but missed the deadline.

It would be helpful to explicitly point out the things that reveal this to be C position.

I think that in A, you can do and achieve everything that Johnny is doing, except the turnaround where he does, as you say, the Lemon Jefferson trick of playing the 4th fret 2nd string against the open 1st string. To me that is the definitive indicator of the playing position.

The ending can be closely approximated in A position like this (chords only, not timing):
| 0  2  x  x   x  0
| 2  3  1  2  1  2
| 2  2  2  2  1  2
| 2  4  1  2  1  2
| 0
|

Another great exercise!

Dave

Offline Johnm

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #268 on: September 10, 2014, 01:05:06 PM »
Hi Dave,
There are a lot of indicators that Johnny Shines was playing out of C position.  At the opening of the intro, he's rocking between 5-3 and 3-1 on the first two strings in the treble, suggesting movement back and forth from a I chord at 5-3, voiced 3rd-5th from the second string to the first and the V7 chord at 3-1, voiced 5th-7th.  These two positions are commonly used by players working out of C position, as in John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt With Me".  To get the same sounds relative to A position, Johnny Shines would have to be fretting the double stops at 6-5 and 4-3, going from the third string to the second string.  I wouldn't say that those double stops are not ever used by players in the style, but the use of them is drastically less common than the same sounds in C position.

At about :06 of the intro, John Shines hits a bent II note, resolving it to an unbent II note, all happening over the I chord.  In C position, that is the most common bend employed by people working in that position, with the little finger bending the third fret of the second string and then hitting the same note unbent.  To get the analogous sound in A position, the player would have to bend the fourth fret of the third string, resolving it to the unbent fourth fret of the third string (or open second string).  Such a move is really rare in A position, largely because it is counter-intuitive to do a bend above a finger holding down a barre.  The bend could be free-handed, though, in A position.  Basically, the bend is a C position bend, not an A position bend, though.

The V7 chord that concludes the intro is voiced with a low root in the bass, then up an octave to root-3rd-b7th.  The b7th is the highest voice sounding in the chord.  In A position, this would entail playing an E7 voiced 0-x-2-1-3-X.  Johnny Shine is strumming very freely in his right hand--to avoid hitting the open first string in that E7 chord, he would have to be studiously avoiding hitting it, and he truthfully doesn't sound to be doing anything that carefully.  The V7 chord in C position, G7, would be voiced
3-X-X-0-0-1 to get the same sound.  To my ears, that is clearly the way he gets his sound.  He doesn't hit anything higher than the b7th of the chord, because that is the highest note voiced in the chord, at the first fret of the first string.

At about :58-1:02, Johnny goes to the IV chord in the third verse, the fifth and sixth bars of the form.  He does a shuffle rock in his IV chord, similar to what he does in his I chord, but voiced differently.  His two chords in the IV chord rock are voiced Root-3rd-5th-Root and Root-3rd-6th-Root.  In A position, to play such a rock over the IV chord, D, would involve moving easily and seamlessly from X-5-4-2-3-X to X-5-4-4-3-X, on the interior four strings of the guitar.  I think the first position is implausible, but the ease with which Johnny plays the rocking motion really rules out the possibility.  In C position, the sound of the rock would be achieved by going from an F chord voiced on the top four strings,
X-X-3-2-1-1 to an F6 on the same strings, voiced X-X-3-2-3-1.  Basically, he can hold the F chord down the whole time and just drop his little finger in at the third fret of the second string when he wants to get that 6th note.  It is right under the hand.

There are other indicators which further support the assessment that he was working out of C position in the course of the rendition, but I think what we have up to this point suffices.  Like I said before, I didn't think of Johnny Shines as a player who ever worked in C position, but by the time the intro was over, I knew that was where he was, and everything after that supported that interpretation.
All best,
Johnm

Offline David Kaatz

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #269 on: September 10, 2014, 03:13:55 PM »
I'm too lazy a listener, apparently, to pick most of that up. Practice, practice. That was much more detail than I expected, John. I tend to find something close to the sound and then try to work out the major landmarks within it. The nuances you are noticing then would be lost in my version.
Thanks.

Dave

 


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