Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Ol Time Rounders" by Emmet Murray, a Florida musician who was recorded in the 1980s.  Pan originally provided a link to a podcast that included this performance a couple of years ago, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7053.msg55949#msg55949 .  I think both the song and Emmet Murray's performance of it are terrific.  Here it is:



Captain got a way he got to stop
A-wakin' me up at four o'clock
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
Can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

It look mighty cloudy, but it ain't gon' rain
You look on the table, it's the same old thing
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

If I'd a-knowed my Captain was mean
I wouldn't ever left St. Augustine
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
You can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

SPOKEN EXCHANGE:  "Remember when the Captain used to do you that-a way, then.  "Me too, boy."  "Yeah."

May be crazy, but I ain't no fool
I'm goin' down in Florida where I won't have a plow nor mule
All of you old, long-time rounders better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
You can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

There are just two questions on "Ol Time Rounders":
   * What playing position/tuning did Emmet Murray use to play the song?
   * What are the pitches to which his strings are tuned?

I consider this a tough puzzler, and a particularly strong performance, so I'd like to allow more time than usual for folks to come up with their answers, so please don't post any answers to the questions before Friday morning, November 28.  As usual, please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

Well, I'll have a go! Open C tuning. My guess for the notes is: CGEGCE. Whatever the actual tuning is, it certainly produces a haunting accompaniment. Great sound.

[Pan]

Hi all.

I may very well be wrong, but I'm going to suggest standard tuning, E position tuned really low. I think he's tuned down a major 3rd, to C, so the tuning would be C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C, if I got it right.

Emmet Murray is a fantastic musician, thanks for posting this, John!

Cheers

Pan

[Prof Scratchy]

You may well be right, Pan!

[Old Man Ned]

This is a real teaser isn't it? but what a fantastic tune.  It sounds like it's coming from a really deep place.  I'm getting the E high and low strings tuned right down to C and have been trying all sorts of weird and, some not so wonderful, combinations.  Last night I was trying to get this in the Vestapol tuning, tuned right down to C in the bass.  Then I had the tune bouncing around in my head all night and lay awake at 3 this morning thinking I was over complicating this and my latest attempts are standard tuning, tuned way down to C in the low E and playing out of E position as Pan suggests.  Which I was relieved  to see.   Missing the best part of a night's sleep may not have been in vain!

[frailer24]

Could be E position, 2 steps low, or this tuning I've been working with: CGCGBD.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thank you for your responses.  Despite the fact that there were only two questions with regard to Emmet Murray's "Ol' Time Rounders", it has been the most difficult of all the puzzlers posted in this thread to figure out and be satisfied that I had it right.  Here are the answers that I came up with, followed by the reasoning/hearing behind them.
   * I believe Emmet Murray played "Ol Time Rounders" out of E position in standard tuning
   * His guitar was pitched with its open strings sounding at C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C
In determining the playing position for "Ol' Time Rounders", the first point was that the open sixth string was the lowest pitch struck and is the I note of the key in which the song is sounding.  This eliminates most playing positions/tunings, but left as possibilities:
   * E position in standard tuning
   * Dropped D tuning
   * Vestapol
   * Cross-note
   * Open C (low)
   * EAEGBE
   * DGDGBE, played in D position
As Emmet Murray begins his third verse, at :53, he does a thumb drag from from his open sixth string to his open fifth string, sounding a I note on the sixth string and a IV note on his open fifth string.  Having an interval of a fourth between the sixth and the fifth string eliminates Dropped D tuning, Vestapol, Cross-note and open C tuning from the running, since they all have an interval of a fifth between their open sixth string and the open fifth string.  That leaves the following positions/tunings in the running:
   * E position, standard tuning
   * DGDGBE tuning, played in D position
   * EAEGBE tuning
As Emmet Murray begins his second verse, at :34--:36, he twice hits a sonority where he hits a ringing VI note on his fifth string, with a I chord voiced Root-3-5-Root on the fourth through first strings above it.  That sonority leaves E position in standard tuning in the running, because you can voice such a chord as X-4-2-1-0-0.  DGDGBE tuning in D position is eliminated by this sonority, though, because while you can get the VI note on the fifth string, at the fourth fret, you can't play that note and let it sustain and voice a D chord Root-3-5-Root above it, since the first string is one whole step above the higher of the two roots in that voicing.  You just don't have the notes to do it.   EAEGBE tuning remains a possibility, since you could get the sonority by fingering X-4-0-1-0-0.
Fairly near the beginning of the song, Emmet Murray plays an ascending bass run which has him climbing up from the low Root on his open sixth string to IV, up to V, up to bVII and resolving up to the Root an octave above where he started the run.  In E position in standard tuning, those notes sit so easily and naturally accessible at the open sixth string, the open fifth string, the second fret of the sixth string, the open fourth string and the second fret of the fourth string.  The tuning more or less gives you the run.  The same run can be played in EAEGBE tuning, but it lies so much less naturally and intuitively, at the open sixth string, the open fifth string, the second fret of the fifth string, the fifth fret of the fifth string and the open fourth string--not impossible to play, but at the same time not exactly under the hand.
Taken in sum, this process eliminates every one of the possible tunings at the starting point of the identification process with the exception of E position in standard tuning and EAEGBE tuning.  EAEGBE tuning would make enough other aspects of what goes on in the left hand of the song very unusual, to the extent that I'm satisfied that it eliminates itself, though it would probably be possible to figure out a way to play the song using that tuning.
Let's hear it for E standard tuning, then, as the position that Emmet Murray used to play "Ol' Time Rounders", and congratulations to Pan for making that identification in the first place.  It's kind of amazing when you think of how much hard listening and skull work it takes just to figure out what playing position Emmet Murray used for the piece--whew!
I don't know how much other recording Emmet Murray did, but from my point of view it all belongs on an easily accessible CD, that could be bought and listened to over and over.  Even if there's nothing else by him out there, I anticipate doing that kind of listening to "Ol' Time Rounders" in any event.

Thanks for your participation, and I'll post a new puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm 
     

[Pan]

Thank you again for your detailed analysis, John!

Being a big Emmet Murray fan, I'd like to point out, that the Dust-to-Digital collection "Drop On Down In Florida: Field Recordings Of African American Tradition" has, among some other gems, altogether 6 Emmett Murray tunes, recorded on field by Dwight DeVane and  Peggy A. Bulger on April 8, 1980. They are:

- Old Time Rounders
- She's a Fool, She Ain't Got No Sense
- Mobile Blues
- I'm Gonna Dig Myself a Hole
- I'll Find My Way
- Drinkin' Bad Bad Whiskey

I'm not aware of any further recordings by Emmet  Murray.

http://www.ideabooks.nl/9781938922244-drop-on-down-in-florida-field-recordings-of-african-american-traditi

Cheers

Pan

[frailer24]

Looks like I need to get me ears cleaned.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is Willie Lane's "Too Many Women Blues", recorded in 1949.  Boy, did he know what he was doing!  Here is his performance:



I've got so many women, I don't hardly know who to choose
I've got so many women, I don't hardly know who to choose
Boy, I wake up every morning, I got too many women blues

I've got a little bitty woman, she lives down in Arkansas
Little bitty woman, she lives down in Arkansas
She's pigeon-toed, she's bow-legged, she got dimples all in her jaw

SOLO

Some red, some yella, some is black, some is teasin' brown
Some is red, some is yella, some is black, some is teasin' brown
You can't tell much about 'em, 'cause they're scattered all over town

Five on the South Side, seven on the East Side
Nine on the West Side, North Side, too
Ten out in Oak Lawn, 'leven on Sixth Avenue
I've got twelve in the Bottom, thirteen in TCU

SPOKEN:  Too many women, they waren't good

Here are the questions on "Too Many Women Blues"
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lane use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the positions he plays in the fifth and six bars of the first verse, at :19--:23?
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse?
   * Where does he fret the descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo?
   * In the lyric break that starts at 1:57, what two chords is he rocking back and forth between?

Answer however many of the questions you're comfortable addressing, but please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers.  Please don't post any answers until Monday morning, December 1, to give plenty of people an opportunity to listen to the song and formulate their own answers before answers start being posted.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Thanks for the tip on the Dust-to Digital release that includes all of Emmett Murray's cuts, Pan.  I'll have to pick that up.
All best,
Johnm

[David Kaatz]

I guess I'll go first.
Guitar tuned to standard EADGBE, playing in the key of A.

Playing in the 5th and 6th bars, he plays an F on the 3rd fret of the fourth string to pickup to the F# on the 4th fret of the same string. The chord is fretted 4232, fourth to first strings. Then he moves to an F on the fourth string, and fingers a D minor chord fretted 3231, fourth to first strings.

The fill at :37 - :39 is played at the 7th fret, he plays 78 on the first two strings, and bends them.

The descending run at 1:23--1:25 is played as triplets, except the last two notes, something like this:

E|-------------|
B|4321---------|
G|----21-------|
D|------210----|
A|---------3 0 |
E|-------------|


at 1:57, the two chords are C#7 and D7. Both are fingered the same with the first 3 fingers each catching a note. A cool voicing:
 
E|-------------
B|-------------
G|-4-5-4-5-4-5-
D|-3-4-3-4-3-4-
A|-2-3-2-3-2-3-
E|-------------


Dave

[Prof Scratchy]

I have standard tuning A position. For the section from :19 to :23 I hear a D7 chord fingered xx4535 resolving to xx3525. from :37 to :39 it's a bent chord x0x878. for the descending run, it's something like str/fret 2/1,0; 3/2,1,0; 4/2,1,0; 5/0,3bend,0. I can't figure out the two minor sounding chords at 1:57!

[Old Man Ned]

I'm getting standard tuning in A also.  The fretting positions he plays at :19--:23 in the fifth bar I'm saying D7 4535 (4th string to 1st) not sure about the 6th bar though so I'm going to keep a dignified silence on that one.  Could he be he fretting the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse at 3rd string 12 fret, 2nd string 13th fret?
The descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo is lovely and possibly
E|-------------|
B|431---------|
G|----20-------|
D|------210----|
A|---------3 0 |
E|-------------|

very close to Davek, but I'm just not hearing all of those notes.  But because I don't hear them doesn't mean they're not there.....phew pure Zen, that!

The two chords he's rocking back and forth between at 1:57 I'm not so sure about but I'm going to go with a C9 at the 3rd fret to C#9 at the 4th fret.

As always. looking forward to the answer.

[Pan]

Hi all

Here's my attempt to answer the puzzler.

Here are the questions on "Too Many Women Blues"
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lane use to play the song?

I agree with A-position, standard tuning.

   

* Where is he fretting the positions he plays in the fifth and six bars of the first verse, at :19--:23?

I agree with the chords Professor Scratchy proposed, only I think there?s a typo on the second one, the Dm7 should have a 3rd fret instead the 2nd fret, on the 2nd string: xx3535.

 

* Where does he fret the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse?

I hear just the open  5th string and a double-stop played against it, on the 2nd string 7th fret and 1st string 8th  fret, bent up a little.

 

* Where does he fret the descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo?

That?s a tough one, it being so fast. I think he starts with a bend up a whole step from the 3rd fret 2nd string; followed by the 3rd fret 2nd string bend released; then the 1st fret 2nd string.
Then 2nd fret 3rd string; to open 3rd string; to 2nd fret 4th string.
Then the 1st fret 4th string to open 4th string and open 3rd string.
All this played in triplets, then two eight notes, the 3rd fret 5th string bent a little, followed by the open 5th string.

   

* In the lyric break that starts at 1:57, what two chords is he rocking back and forth between?

Agreed again with the Professor, on the minor sound. I?m going to suggest an E chord X-X-X-1-0-0, followed by an Am chord X-X-X-2-1-0.

Looking forward for the verdict again. Another great choice, John, thank you!

Cheers

Pan