WeenieCampbell.com
Country Blues => Country Blues Licks and Lessons => Topic started by: deltaslim on March 06, 2008, 11:01:34 PM
-
Skip James has been a personal favorite of mine since high school (only long playing albums then). But I never really bothered to learn his signature tunes like Hard Time Killin Floor, Cypress Grove, Devil Got My Woman on his original Dm tuning. Instead I try to approximate them in regular tuning (playing in key of Em) or Vastapol/open D. I get by enough (especially in regular tuning) to get that sad minor key vibe but I often get conscious-stricken and ask myself, "Why not stay true to the original... the way Skip did it?". In a way, it's like preserving that specific art form he also learned from Bentonia region.
Any of you guys make do with regular tuning or Vastapol and don't mind NOT doing it in Dm?
-
Why not learn straight from the man himself?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2POWSnStU
-
I've never tried playing any of Skip's minor tuned songs in standard tuning myself. But I could imagine it being done to a certain degree. As an example of the reverse of this, for quite some time, I was trying to figure out All Night Long in cross-note (minor) tuning, since it has much of that "sound", standard riffs Skip plays in cross-note etc. Well, it turns out All Night Long is in standard tuning out of E position. And it's going to be a helluva lot easier as well, since stuff he does on the IV and V chord is complicated (and getting right down to it, unnatural) in cross-note, straightforward in standard. Doh.
-
Definitely better to work them out in Em/Dm tuning IMO. The differences are huge between Em and Vestapol, personally I don't think you can sound as close to Skip without the third string flatted that extra semitone to give you the minor 3rd ringing out open. Besides that there are some exceedingly cool chords and partials all over the place on the neck in this tuning. For such a small difference tuning-wise it's surprisingly unlike Vestapol when you get going with it, I find.
As for doing Skip songs in standard tuning, I learned to play Special Rider that way and I'm attached to my arrangement of it, complete with octave runs in the breaks. It doesn't have that Skip sound but I like to do it that way.
You should come to Port Townsend and hang out with John Cephas, he inspired me to explore it with an amazing version of Illinois Blues he and Phil played at a concert that gave me goosebumps.
I seem to remember Alvin Youngblood Hart saying he plays Skip's minor-ish tunes in Vestapol, killing or fretting the open 3rd, I may have misremembered that, must dig out the tape.
-
Well, when you think of it, Standard could be said to be closer to Crossnote than Vastapol is, since it contains the minor 3rd (and in addition you get the dom7 on the open 4th). And with the top three strings identical in both tunings, all the treble licks are the same. In a way, the primary diff between Blues in E and Crossnote, aside from various bass licks at the nut, is that the latter affords you an alternating bass, over the usual monotonic, when licking up the neck in the treble on the I, but leaves you high and dry looking for a bass for the IV.
This has probably been said somewhere else around here.-G-
All for now.
John C.
-
But it sounds very different though Wax, very airy, lot of space, when you do fret something the contrast can be intense. The changes can also be made pretty subtle. Illinois Blues is my favorite, it's great for working with on the main licks, bass part and changes. After toiling with it for a while you really start to appreciate how great a musician Skip James was. Depressing though, I have to retune and launch into some ragtime foolishness after playing that stuff for a while.
-
I seem to remember Alvin Youngblood Hart saying he plays Skip's minor-ish tunes in Vestapol, killing or fretting the open 3rd, I may have misremembered that, must dig out the tape.
Well, from the looks of this youtube video below, from the tribute to Skip James show in NY, I'd say your memory is serving you right, at least for Illinois Blues. Alvin looks like he's playing it out of Vestapol here. Love the intro: "I don't know why they called me for this, I know nothing about Skip James."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDT38rXJKiw
-
Yes I agree, the IV chord is the giveaway. Those Dano formica-topped semi acoustics are pretty good for plugged-in low down country blues. I keep bumping into them around here.
-
What a voice. Hard to appreciate the sheer power of his vocals until you are sitting in the same room with him!
Those Danos are cheap and have a unique bonky sound - I currently have a baritone, a ton of fun.
-
Hi John C.,
I agree with the point you made a little ways up there--E standard is much more like cross-note than is Vestapol, for the very reasons you say. It is not for nothing that in his cross-note pieces, Skip James avoids IV chords about as assiduously as Dr. Ross and Sam Collins avoided V chords, because the IV chord is quite weak in cross-note, as you observe. Thanks for the cogent analysis.
Mark is right, too, that despite the similarities, cross-note sounds different, I think mostly because it is so root and fifth heavy and third light. There are lots of open intervals there.
I think the tuning that has it all is standard with fourth string high. It has no more simple name that I know of, but is the reputed mystery tuning that Furry Lewis used for "Mistreatin' Mama" and a couple of other tunes. You can either simply raise the fourth string up to E in standard so that you have E-A-E-G-B-E, or tune down everything but the fourth string, D-G-D-F-A-D, which is what I do. This tuning really has huge possibilities: the top three strings are the same as in standard (and cross-note) so that everything on those strings transfers over intact, and the bottom two strings are the same as in standard, so you have a low root for the IV chord (unlike cross-note), as well as all of the traveling V chord options that are available in standard, as in Lemon's "One Dime Blues", Luke Jordan's "Church Bells", et al. Clifford Gibson's "Don't Put that Thing On Me" works like a charm in this tuning. In addition to which, you can use it to play in keys other than that of the sixth string. I did "Deceiving Blues", on the CD with Orville and Grant in that tuning in the key of the fourth string, really an eerie sound. I like the tuning because everybody and his brother have not already played great stuff on it, so you can find sounds that have not been so heavily mined before.
All best,
Johnm
-
The only cross-note tunes I can think of where James even suggests IV chords are "Hard Luck Child" and "Yola My Blues Away" -- I can't remember him doing that in his postwar recordings.
Chris
-
Veering off topic here but the Vestapol/Cross-Note question touched on in the discussion of how Alvin Youngblood Hart plays Illinois Blues (and perhaps others, Rivers?) in Vestapol and not cross-note caused me to do a double-take on a tune I'd been fooling around with. I initially figured out Alvin's tune If Blues Was Money in cross-note. It has quite a minor, open sound to me, very Henry Townsend more than Skip James. Anyway, I went back and relearned the song in Vestapol yesterday, and I'm 99% sure Alvin does it that way as well. It didn't take long since in both cases the third string was being muted mostly (with a minor third occasionally being played on the fourth string and bent towards a major third). There was almost no mental adjustment required aside from needing to be more careful in muting or fretting that third string.
-
I think AYH said he played all his Skip / Bentonia tunes in Vesatapol, the workshop was 10 years ago so I could be wrong.
Re. the IV, it shows up in Special Rider in the break, on the way down to a flat third but I agree it's the exception that proves the rule, more often it's implied rather than a full chord. I was incorrect in saying Alvin's playing a IV, it's got to be the V as you point out. They look pretty similar in Vestapol. Been a while since I had a Skip phase, is my excuse.
IV in Catfish Blues too, don't know what tuning he's in. In fact I hear one in I'm So Glad too. So I guess I disagree, unless they are in Spanish or standard! ;)
-
Been a while since I had a Skippy phase, too, but IIRC, Special Rider is in Spanish, no?
All for now.
John C.
-
And you would of course recall correctly...
-
Caveats all round, I play two Skip songs, Special Rider in standard tuning and Illinois in Em. I get too depressed if I try to do much more, I'm simply too much of a sunny disposition to get the doominess required. I mess with Killing Floor but don't enjoy playing it for the reasons I mentioned.
I still think though if you really want to sound like Skip on the crossnote tunes you need to be in the minor tuning. Alvin was close but not quite there, Cephas gets much closer.
-
Thanks for the y'all. Interesting discussion too, eh?
I guess the real question is: What is my/our primary objective -- play and sound like Skip or interpret the song in the I/we're most comfortable with? I admit that part of the motivation/limitation is that learning it in a tuning I already use a lot allows me to practice it more. And since my standard-tuned guitars are easer to reach for whereas you have the pull the Vastapol-tuned Tricone out it's case under the bed, etc... well... :-D
Like Rivers, I guess I've hit on an arrangement of some Skip tunes that I've grown fond of and works for me in live performance (Hard time killing floor in standard E, and Cypress grove blues in Vastapol). But I'm pretty sure that as I decide to seriously study more of Skip's and other's cross-note tunes, I'll definitely do em in that tuning. It'll just be another arrow in the quiver, like standard, open G, open D...
-
Hi delta slim,
If you are playing "Cypress Grove" in Vestapol, you are one half-step away from cross-note tuning, just lower your third string one semi-tone, from F# to F (or G# to G, if you are playing Vestapol in E). Don't wait, try it today, give it a shot, at least. There's no point in waiting.
All best,
Johnm
-
One of the signature sounds for me with certain classic Skip James tunes is that hammer-on trill he does so often on the third string between the open string and the first fret, the minor third and major third. You can get it in standard tuning, but not in Vestapol. So I agree, drop that string a half-step. The mental adjustment will be minimal IMO.
-
Hi delta slim,
If you are playing "Cypress Grove" in Vestapol, you are one half-step away from cross-note tuning, just lower your third string one semi-tone, from F# to F (or G# to G, if you are playing Vestapol in E). Don't wait, try it today, give it a shot, at least. There's no point in waiting.
All best,
Johnm
Hi John - I know and I have tried, its just that I've never really bothered do a note for note cover of the orig because I anticipate some practical limitations in a live gig context. I guess I'm just exploring other approaches given those limitations. In the middle of a set, I really try not to test the audience's limited patience for audible retunings on acoustics. Because of their somber mood, doing consecutive Skip James tunes is stretching the audience's capacity to absorb hardcore blues so I have to retune back to Vastapol or other anyway and try more Skip later on in the set. My solution is to bring guitars that are already tuned and stay tuned to standard, Vastapol, or Fandango. But certainly, if and when I want cross-note, especially if I'm just practicing at home, I do shift to it from Vastapol. As I said, if and when I build up a bigger repertoire of cross-note tunes, I'll certainly do it 'proper'.
Thanks for your input.
-
Yes I play "killing floor" and "devil got my woman" in crossnote (open D minor) tuning.
Although in my (totally amateur) opinion they are major key.
Tried playing them in vestapol but did not like at all so went back to crossnote.
In my totally amateur opinion I do not consider those two pieces to be fully chordal, I think of the root chord as being just the two notes D and A, I fret an Fsharp but avoid emphasising it.
In the melody of "killing floor" I bend the F up about half a semitone and bend the C up a bit too.
Incidentally crossnote is fun for some other tunes normally done in std tuning, for example "beulah land" by John Hurt.
-
I can't believe no one has mentioned Jack Owens in this thread yet!
Lots of cross-note tunes!
-
I reviewed my study list and realized there are quite number of cross-note stuff in there already. So I got off my lazy *ss and, for starters, worked out the Skip James stuff and quickly got a number of em down (Hard time killin floor, Cypress grove, Cherry ball, Illinois) in the proper, purist-approved tuning. :-D I'm not saying I got em down pat note-for-note, but close enough for a non-purist blues audience.
Then while playing with it I came up with some cool new riffs, licks. It seemed some old compositions also sounded more appropriate in cross-note. I have decided I'll write some new songs and arrangements in the tuning. To make a long story short, I think got enough material to justify retuning for cross-note in a gig, and therefore doing the songs in the 'right' tuning. And, oh yeah, they do sound better that way, even tho the notes are the same.
Thank you all for the inspiration and kick in the butt!
-
That's great to hear Slim, it dos sound subtly different does it not.
Thank you all for the inspiration and kick in the butt!
That's what we're here for!
-
Absolutely do the Dm tuning. If you're in open D, it is only a matter of taking the F# to F. I'm not the best on-the-spot tuning guy out there, but I do Skip tunes at live shows every once in a while, and it doesn't slow me down much at all to tune from open D to open Dm. You can't miss it when it's there.
One "trick" I employ is to do the F string slide from the second to fourth fret used in HTKF and Devil Got My Woman. 2~4~0. That just sounds right or it doesn't, and after a while it becomes automatic. When I tune back up, I just fret the IV as it would be in D (a C chord played using what would be an E7 shape if we're in standard tuning) and that rings pretty true when the F is back up to F#... maybe more importantly, it again sounds REALLY off if it is off a fraction.
If for no other reason, it seems to me like playing a Skip James song in standard tuning would be twice as much work as it is in D minor.
-
farka is correct. Cephes teackes it that way and watching Skip, thats what it looks like even though you could probably play it in a number of tunings,
-
I notice that Orville Johnson has a lesson on Skip James in the latest Acoustic Guitar, available on the website at http://www.acousticguitar.com/article/Default.aspx?ArticleID=25611
-
Hi
I am exploring skip James r?pertoire (i Did get the John Cephas lessons). i am this week working on crow jane i could not find any accurate tabs any idea, i am trying to work on YouTube a skip james version.
another question would be how to work the tempo, do you work with a metronome ? do you just follow your soul or may be feet claping ? timing is something not that easy with skip james stuff.
thanks for your help !
felix
-
Hi Felix,
I don't know of anything on-line but I learnt a nice version of Crow Jane from this book:
http://www.guitarvideos.com/artists/stefan-grossman/country-blues-guitar-complete-set-lessons-1-3 (http://www.guitarvideos.com/artists/stefan-grossman/country-blues-guitar-complete-set-lessons-1-3)
It doesn't have any of the nice breaks but does outline your basics to work on.
-
Try standard tuning, capoing at the 3rd fret, play out of C position, was my conclusion after listening and playing along. There's maybe something slightly different going on with respect to the voicing of the last repeated IV chords, perhaps a closed position jazzy F7 shape (not sure about this). Picking hand I think is alternating bass all the way. I have not attempted it in any alternate tunings, I believe he's in standard, capoed, C position.
This is based on the 'She Lyin' Genes CD version. Please feel free to post a link to the youtubes version you're studying. Interestingly Carl Martin seems to be configured like that also so I assume Skip got it from there.
I could be completely wrong though and will be interested in further comments.
[later: I'm hearing a low E flat in there which would tend to trash my theory. Maybe E position tuned down half a step? Henry Johnson seems to play it out of E position]
-
Actually, Skip James plays it out of E position. In the film footage available on YouTube, he's pitched around D, still playing out of E position. On "She Lyin'" it's more around E-flat, on Today! around E.
As for the tempo, Felix, as with any of this stuff, I'd say start slow, get the groove going, then bring it up to speed when you can play it smoothly. Skip plays it pretty fast in the film clip, slower on Today!
For the most part, he plays his first position E chord as an E partial, meaning he doesn't bother fretting or playing the 5th string when in that position (but does when moving to the V chord, i.e. the B7). Sometimes these partial chords can help as you're switching chords positions at a quicker tempo. They also help make embellishments simpler, like the hammer-ons he does on the 3rd string, 1st fret.
I've always liked his version a lot.
The footage:
Skip James sings "Crow Jane" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVww5r4Nk0#ws)
-
Ah, sanity! See my last update, E pos, tuned down half a step. On the Genes recording anyway.
-
One of the things that's great about having the video version, pfunk75, is that it makes it so much easier to track the ways that Skip varied his right hand thumbwork in different passes through the form. In the first verse, every time he resolves from B7 back to E, he hits the sixth string three times in a row before alternating up to the fourth string. In the second verse at the same place in the form, he does a conventional alternation from the sixth string up to the fourth string twice. It would be worth your while to watch the video several times through just for the thumbwork in the right hand. The left hand is close to the same every time through, at least on his verse accompaniments.
All best,
Johnm
-
Speaking of the right hand thumbwork, he does a nifty little bass move in the 2nd verse where he sings "Shoot Crow Jane just to see her fall." At the "just", he plays a stumble bass from the 5th string A to an E-flat on the 4th string, then 5th string A to 4th string E. It works so nice as a lead-in to the V chord.
-
hi all
thanks for your advice. It helps to catch all the little details and trick.
I was reffering to the Skip james video on youtube as mentioned by uncle bud. It is a fast version and you can clearly hear the alternating bass. Lot's of feeling too (for the tempo). For me it is realy the more complex part in fact be able to sing it while playing.
I worked on the Stefan grossman version and some other player on youtube.
(Each version is quiet different ;-) blues it is !
F
-
Pfunk, the song is transcribed in the book below. unfortunately it's out of print. amazon sells it used for bizarre prices right now;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0793570433/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0793570433/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used)
try your local library.
-
I am just curious (because I was thinking about purchasing them)... are the John Cephas lessons not very good?
-
I've always loved Skip James and am hoping to learn some of his tunes. I know that Tom Feldmann will be coming out with a Skip James lesson DVD sometime in the future, but I was hoping someone could recommend a DVD or book with Skip James tunes I could look into now. I know that John Cephas filmed some lessons, but I only ever read one opinion on them which wasn't very favorable.
-
I think you may have identified a gap in the market there, Westside. Said DVD would do well to cover other artists in that tuning as well though, see http://weeniecampbell.com/wiki/index.php?title=Adventures_in_Cross-Note (http://weeniecampbell.com/wiki/index.php?title=Adventures_in_Cross-Note)
In respect of John Cephas, I learned a ton of stuff from actually sitting down with him in a classroom setting. In fact he and Phil got me interested in the whole minor tuning topic just by playing Illinois Blues one time and blowing the doors off a very big room.
See also the tags index item for cross note, http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?option=com_smf&action=tags;tagid=1158 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?option=com_smf&action=tags;tagid=1158)
-
Hi Ryan--
Here's a second opinion for you: the John Cephas DVDs may not be as slickly produced as some of the others out there on the market, but they give you the essentials for several Skip James tunes, and between what you get on those DVDs, the accompanying tab, and your ears, you'll have more than enough material to work with. I encourage you to purchase one and see if it fits your needs.
http://www.thegtw.com/artists/john_cephas/J_Cephas_skv1.htm (http://www.thegtw.com/artists/john_cephas/J_Cephas_skv1.htm)
Have fun with it! As Rivers says, Illinois Blues is a great song, I was in the same classroom when John taught it. You can do a search for John's version on youtube.
Lindy
-
John was a great guy and one of my favorite players (I have all of his albums). I also had the honor of hanging out with him in Chicago a while back and had a blast. As far as the lessons go, I don't really care about the production or slickness. My friend had downloaded a couple from the site you mentioned and I guess they didn't come with any (printable) tabs. He said that tabs were present during playback of the video, but were very hard to see and inaccurate. I see now that you can buy the book with all of the DVDs, but that woul be quite an investment for me at this time!
-
The John Cephas Skip James songs I've watched on youTube are really useful.
I've been tempted by the Hal Leonard book of Skip James songs. Has anyone used it?
-
Are you speaking of the out of print "The Skip James Blues Collection" book?
-
Elderly also carries the Cephas series including a compellation DVD. I picked up two and they work for me. One of em is only 8 bucks! I was fortunate to have had a series of group lessons with John his last year at Port Townsend. I had never played in front of other people before, am a sloooowww learner... yet found him to be a very helpful, together, clear and concise, kind but no-nonsense teacher. Had that falsetto down too.
http://elderly.com/search/elderly?terms=cephas (http://elderly.com/search/elderly?terms=cephas)
Gary
-
There's a detailed article by Orville Johnson with stuff to get you started here: http://skipjames.com/?page_id=94 (http://skipjames.com/?page_id=94)
-
Elderly also carries the Cephas series including a compellation DVD. I picked up two and they work for me. One of em is only 8 bucks!
Thanks for the link! I wonder why one is $8 and the others are $29? Did the DVD come with a PDF of printable tabs?
*I just realized that it says "comes with CD/ROM - print it out or follow it onscreen!"
There's a detailed article by Orville Johnson with stuff to get you started here: http://skipjames.com/?page_id=94 (http://skipjames.com/?page_id=94)
Thanks for link!
-
Hi Ryan,
It may sound weird coming from someone whose profession is teaching, but you ought to consider figuring out some of Skip's tunes by ear. None are very difficult in the left hand. Get in tune with his recordings, whatever tune you're interested and hunker down! Good luck with that.
All best,
Johnm
-
I second the above post. Even the John Cephas videos I've seen on youTube don't really nail what I hear when I listen to Skip James. They seem to "normalise" Skip's playing a bit, to my ears.
Cephas's version of "Cherry Ball Blues" for instance, leaves out the lovely spooky spindley duplicate-note riff that Skip plays in the verses. A sort of two-finger unison drilling of a D on the open D string with the same note, same pitch of D, on the string below. Accompanied by alternated octave Ds in the bass. (Or, of course, Es if you're playing it in open E rather than D) That for me is the most charismatic part of the song: sounds particularly evocative against the line "she's just like a spider/hanging on the wall"
And there's the fact that Skip rarely seems to play the same song the same way twice: that verse riff sounds (to my ears) slightly different on the 1930s version - sounds as if it's the open D but played against a C, not in unison with a D.
Likewise, with "Sickbed Blues" there's one 1960s recording where the main chord see-saw is D to a G minor sounding chord (IV). But there's another 60s recording of the song where that same main thing is D to an A minor 7th somethingorother chord.
-
You guys are right! I should just sit down and try to figure some of the tunes out.
-
Yep, you should. I had a good time immersing myself in his music for a few weeks to write that article. I mostly illustrated some of his common motifs but he certainly strung them together in many different ways. As John M correctly noted, once you're in his tuning the left hand shapes and moves aren't too difficult. Playing the bass/treble counterpoint as he so often does, instead of an alternating bass, is where it gets tricky.
Something that's fun to do is take a song you know and arrange it as Skip James would do it. I did an arrangement like that for the song Duncan & Brady that will be in a future issue of Acoustic Guitar and it was really fun to recast the harmony and rhythm into a Skip James-y sound.
-
while we're talking Skip James, can anyone tell me which songs Skip DIDN'T play in open minor tuning? In conventional tuning, or other? I'm sure I've seen a thread somewhere where this was mentioned, but can't find it now...
-
Special Rider Blues in Spanish, see http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4717.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4717.0)
-
"All Night Long" is in E position, standard tuning. As is "Crow Jane" as I recall. As is his version of "Oh Mary Don't You Weep" I believe.
-
"Drunken Spree" is in A position, standard tuning and the post-rediscovery "Catfish Blues" is in E position, standard tuning.
All best,
Johnm
-
Hi all,
Here is the Skip James guitar style merged thread.
All best,
Johnm
-
Currently learning Crow Jane, the Skip James version.
It's pretty straight forward. Some interesting bass line change ups every chord change, makes it really fun to play, you really got to get into the foot tapping rythym of the piece.
She's going to be a pain to start working on the singing, I can tell already lol
Technical question though: the tuning is standard for sure from what my ears can tell on the "rediscovery" recordings as well as all videos I can find of him playing it based on his chord shapes etc. But it doesn't sound right. Did Skip tune flat for his "standard" tuning songs? I tried a half step down and then a whole step down. The whole step sounded better. Is this correct?
Thanks!
-
Following up on songs Skip played that weren't in a minor tuning, Look Down the Road sounds like E standard to me.
-
Another one in E standard is Skip's Worried Blues/Worried Blues.
Skip James - Skip?s Worried Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhrqBOSazzA#)
-
He is tuned down at least a half step in the video from the folk festival. I just learned this song and it is extremely fun to play, very hard to sing!
-
An accurate TAB (note for note like James played it) is in this book but I think it's out of print.
-
I am so glad I am not the only one that finds his vocal range hard to copy....
-
I would sound like a fool trying to sing like Skip James. I had a Buddy Guy CD a while back that was all acoustic and played Killing Floor and did a pretty good job singing like Skip. At the time I didn't know about Skip James and wondered why he sang it so high.
-
That's probably the "Blues Singer" album. One of his best albums in his mostly overproduced discography.
-
Yes, that's the one. I agree with you Harry. I was never much of a Buddy Guy fan but really liked that album.
-
I would sound like a fool trying to sing like Skip James.
Eddie - maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't... you should try it, though... pretty much everybody has some kinda falsetto they can work with if they take the time to find it. You don't really know what your voice can do unless you try a few things that seem inadvisable, and most men generally think of their voices as being 'low' - not always true, and even if it is, most of your power and projection is going to be at the top end of your range, at least initially.
Anyway, you probably won't sound a whole lot like Skip, but you'll find out a whole lot about what Eddie could sound like. :)
-
Thanks for the encouragement Frankie. Singing is a weak spot for me. I usually just assume I can't do much with my voice but surprise myself from time to time.
-
James plays a lick during the solo sections of Illinois Blues that I can't seem to get my hands around--right after he plays a D-shape at the 7th fret he goes back near the nut and it sounds like he is playing e-e-d-b and repeating it a few times before going back into the next verse. Does anyone know what he is doing here? It sounds like an easy lick, maybe with pull-offs, but I just can't get it to flow right. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
-
I'm at work and don't have a guitar with me, so forgive the vagueness of my description, but as I remember it Skip doesn't go back down to the nut right away, he plays a note on the third string (I want to say it's a C#). He hits it with his thumb as part of the alternation and then plays the open top two strings. The little riff fits right into an easy picking pattern if you do it that way.
Chris
-
Yes I play "killing floor" and "devil got my woman" in crossnote (open D minor) tuning.
Although in my (totally amateur) opinion they are major key.
Pretty ridiculous to comment on a 10+ year old comment but I'm curious about this, and if it's a common feeling?
The first note of Devil Got My Woman is a major III note but I think he's just using it for colour as he walks up the third string.
The only chords seem to be i and v. The difficulty in playing a IV chord in cross-note means he never plays a IV or iv chord so I guess that keeps it a little ambiguous too.
But the melody relies so heavily on the vii degree and the VI degree that I think the song is in the D Dorian, not D Major or D Aeolian.
A funny thing I find with both Devil and Hard Time Killing Floor Blues is that the outros do have a major feel to them. Maybe because in the outro to Devil, at least, it sounds like he might switch to major V chord briefly, which changes the feel?
Edit: the first note is a major III (F# on the third string) not a major IV
-
Hi Gmaj7,
I think you hit the nail on the head in assessing the scale for "Hard Time Killing Floor" and "Devil Got My Woman" (and "Cypress Grove") as D Dorian. If you look at the sung melody as opposed to what Skip plays, which gets into chromatic scale degrees that speak in blues cliches, like the walk-down on the third string, the sung melody is minor with a major VI note and a minor vii note, which is Dorian. The fact that Skip ends on a I chord with a major third and a flat vii doesn't make the songs major, it just means that he resolved to a major third in the final chord.
If you contrast these songs with Booker White's songs that he played in cross-note tuning, Booker's really are Mixolydian, for he fingers and sings a major third over his I chord from beginning to end, but has a major VI note and a flat vii.
All best,
Johnm
-
Hi Gmaj7,
I think you hit the nail on the head in assessing the scale for "Hard Time Killing Floor" and "Devil Got My Woman" (and "Cypress Grove") as D Dorian. If you look at the sung melody as opposed to what Skip plays, which gets into chromatic scale degrees that speak in blues cliches, like the walk-down on the third string, the sung melody is minor with a major VI note and a minor vii note, which is Dorian. The fact that Skip ends on a I chord with a major third and a flat vii doesn't make the songs major, it just means that he resolved to a major third in the final chord.
If you contrast these songs with Booker White's songs that he played in cross-note tuning, Booker's really are Mixolydian, for he fingers and sings a major third over his I chord from beginning to end, but has a major VI note and a flat vii.
All best,
Johnm
Thanks John.
How do you interpret the major third he plays in the signature lick on Hard Time Killing Floor Blues? It pops up a lot, naturally, unlike in Devil Got My Woman.
When assessing the scale or mode of a song is it more important then to focus on the sung melody rather than what is played on the guitar?
As I understand it, major/minor third "worrying" and ambiguity is a blues hallmark so I'm very interested in if there's firm answers to such a question.
-
Hi Gmaj7,
I do not believe there are any firm answers to the questions you pose, but I'll tell you how I think about them and why. I do think of a song as being in the scale/mode that the sung melody employs. In the case of the Skip James songs that you cite, If Skip consistently sings a minor third along with a major sixth and minor seventh note, I would say the song is in Dorian. If his instrumental responses to the sung lines consistently use a major third rather than the minor third that the sung melody uses, and are in agreement with the sung melody on the Vi and Vii notes, ("Cypress Grove" does this) I would say that the sung melody is in the Dorian mode, and the instrumental response is in the Mixolydian mode. A less technical way of describing what he's doing (and, I believe, a less accurate one) is to say he is playing in a scale with a flat seven and a variable third. What I don't like about this way of describing what Skip is doing is that it makes it sound as though he varies the third in his vocal and in his instrumental responses, and that may not be the case--he may be doing the third consistently in his singing and in his playing, but differently in the singing and the playing. However one would choose to describe/analyze it, I think the most accurate thing you could say is that Skip played what he wanted to hear.
All best,
Johnm
-
Hey guys, looking for a second opinion on the main run in the 1931 recording of Cypress Grove. Cross note tuning.
I hear Skip slide up to the 4th fret of the 3rd string, while simultaneously playing the second string open at the same time, all in one attack, then adding the 3rd fret of the second string, then going directly to the descent on the 3rd string, 2nd fret, 1st fret and so on. The Stefan Grossman tab starts the riff as two separate notes instead of the simultaneous slide I'm talking about, and also places an additional open note second string right before the descent, and I just don't hear that at all on the recording?? There's an instructional video with it where it's played that way as well, it just sounds off to me.
This might be confusing, but either way, I'm sure many of you know this riff, so any help or opinions would be awesome!
-
Hi monts,
Skip's signature lick run on his Paramount recording of "Cypress Grove Blues" is a series of three triplets, starting on beat two of the third and seventh bars of his form. He does not slide into a unison--the first triplet is a slide to the fourth fret of the third string, followed by the open second string going to the third fret of the second string. The second triplet begins with either the open second string or the fourth fret of the third string, going from there to the second fret of the third string followed by the first fret of the third string. The third triplet goes from the open fourth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string and then back to the open fourth string. I hope this helps.
All best,
Johnm
-
John, thank you!! breaking it down to three triplets makes a lot more sense to me now!! It was hard to hear in the recording but it makes perfect sense!
-
I'm glad that helped, monts.
-
Hi all,
I merged a recent thread on Skip James' "Cypress Grove" run into this thread, while keeping the titles on the relevant posts the same as they were originally.
All best,
Johnm