Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[waxwing]

I'll take a stab at this one. Having transcribed Fuller's Screamin' and Cryin' the G position in standard jumped out at me and FC is tuned down a step, which I think might be pretty common for him. [Edit - Having read Mr. Mando's post I put a tuner on my guitar. It seems a tad low for standard, but not a whole fret. My guitar musta snuck up a bit as I hadn't put a tuner on it in a while.]

From 0.05-0.07: Sounds like a double stop at 2nd str 3rd ft, 1str 1st ft followed by a lick from 2nd str 1st ft, to 3rd str 3rd ft. bent (possibly into unison with 2nd str. open), to 3rd str. open.

From 0.13 to 0.15: The run starts on the 3rd str open going to 2nd ft to 3rd ft then 2nd str open, to 1st ft, 2nd ft, and 3rd ft, then to open 1st str, back to 2nd str 1st ft, then to 3rd str 3rd fret, to 2nd str open to 3rd str open. A little embellishment on a very similar lick Fuller uses.

From .024 to .026. The turnaround walks down on the 3rd and 2nd string while holding the G at the 3rd fret of the 1st str. Starting from a G chord at XXX433 to XXX323 to XXX213 to XXX003, hitting the 1st string on each up stroke.

From 1.00 to 1.04: This was a little tough for my ears but I think he plays two double stops, starting with 3rd str 4th ft and 2nd str 3rd ft (a B and a D from the I) and then 3rd str 10th ft and 2nd str 8th ft (an F and a G, the rest of the I7).

Listening to this I was amazed at how similar Council's vocal style is to Fuller's.

Wax

[Old Man Ned]

I'm hearing G, in standard tuning too.

For the chord at 05--:07 I'm in agreement with Mr Mando but would add that I think the thumb is getting hook over the top to catch the low G, like 3-2-3-0-3-1.  I always think of this as a Rev Gary Davis chord as his music was the first time I came across this.  Given the similarities to Blind Boy Fuller for this recording I would also suggest a big influence from Rev Gary Davis, if not directly.

For the run, I got:
3rd string open, then 2nd & 3rd fret;
2nd string open, then first and second fret;
2nd string 3rd fret, first string open, then 2nd string 3rd fret;
3rd string 3rd fret, 2nd string third fret, 3rd string open

The turn around at 24--:26:
Chords are G, C, Eb7, G with the bass on the 4th string going down from 3rd to 2nd to 1st frets to open 4th string.  Which I think is what Mr Mando is getting but I recognised this from Rev Gary Davis's playing (She's Funny That Way).

The treble at 1:00--1:04:
Yep, 2nd string 3rd fret and 3rd string 4th fret.  Then drop that down a half step and catch the high G. 

I was seeing this as a Eb7 but I guess you can call it what you like :-)

[Prof Scratchy]

G standard

x23x31

2/0 3/2 3/3 2/0 2/1 2/2 2/3 1/0 2/3 3/3bend 2/0 3/3bend 3/0

xx3003/xx2013/xx1023

xxx43x/xxx323

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It's been more than 24 hours since the last response on Floyd Council's "Poor And Ain't Got A Dime", so I think I'll post the answers.  They are as follows:
   *  Playing position was G position in standard tuning
   *  In the passage from :05--:07, Floyd Council is fingering what I think of as a "double seventh G7", fingered at the beginning of that measure X-2-3-0-3-1.  On beat one, he does a triplet brush of his first two strings while hitting the fifth string in the bass.  On beat two, he re-brushes the triplet on the first two strings, but with the fourth string in the bass.  On beats 3 +, he goes from the first two strings brushed to the first fret of the second string, with the fourth string in the bass and on 4 +, he goes from the bent third fret of the third string going to the open third string against the third fret of the sixth string in the bass.  I think it's entirely possible, as Old Man Ned suggested, that Floyd Council was fingering that third fret of the sixth string all along, with a thumb wrap, but just didn't hit it until the fourth beat.  I think of the voicing as a double seventh G7 because if you look at how the chord is voiced from sixth string to first  (assuming the third fret of the sixth string is fretted), it is voiced
Root-3rd-7th-Root-5th-7th.  There's something very distinctive about the sound of voicing the seventh of the chord on both the fourth and the first string.  Bo Carter used this voicing a lot on his Pop-blues material in C, minus the third fret of the second string, which he chose to leave open.  By doing it that way, Bo freed up a finger in the left hand and didn't have to do a thumb wrap to get the third fret of the sixth string.
   *  Floyd Council's run of triplets from :13--:15 is:  open third string to second and third frets of the third string for the first triplet, open second string to first and second frets of the second string for the second triplet, third fret of the second string to open first string to first fret of the second string for the third triplet, and third fret of the third string to open second string to open third string for his fourth triplet.  Mr mando and Waxwing had this run right on.
   *  The turn-around from :24--:26 finds Floyd Council anticipating his bass brush strokes on the + of beat I, and then progressively brushing X-X-3-0-0-3 on beat two, X-X-2-0-1-3 on beat three, X-X-1-0-2-3 on beat four, resolving to X-X-0-0-0-3 on the downbeat of the next measure.  The chords then are G7/F to C/E to Eb7 to G/D.  Mr mando, Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy all had this.
   *  The move from 1:00--1:04 in the treble is X-X-X-4-3-X going to X-X-X-3-2-3, or G going to G dim7.  As Old Man Ned pointed out, with just hitting those notes on the top three strings, the chord could be either a partial G diminished 7 or a partial Eb7.  I think if you keep those three notes on the first three strings and compare the sound you get by adding the first fret of the fourth string (Eb) versus the sound you get by adding the second fret of the fourth string (E), the E note sounds the better and more appropriate addition to the chord, so to my ears, anyway, the G diminished 7 seems the stronger analysis.

I feel like all who responded did very well on this one.  Every responder had the playing position right, and often a correct response was missed by just one note out of a host of notes, as in the triplet run.  One thing that I really like about Floyd Council's rendition of this song is that he varies his fills and runs throughout his performance.  Certainly, he returns to some runs, but he also introduces some licks and ideas that he only plays once and doesn't return to, which gives his playing a sort of "tip of the iceberg" quality.  I found myself wondering how much other stuff he had in his musical bag of tricks.  Hearing some tracks by Floyd Council and Dennis McMillon, as well as tunes by the Trice Brothers and Bull City Red makes me realize that a lot of these East Coast players who I think are often thought of as sort of second echelon musicians were, in fact, very, very strong in what they did, both playing and singing, as well as having a lot of originality in what they did.  They were by no means just a bunch of Blind Boy Fuller imitators.  If you enjoyed the Floyd Council cut and the Dennis McMillon track we looked at recently, all of the early tracks by those two artists, as well as those by Rich and Willie Trice, Frank Edwards, Sonny Jones, Roosevelt Antrim and the Cedar Creek Sheik can be found on the JSP set, "Blind Boy Fuller, Vol. 2".  No home should be without it.

Thanks to those who participated, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
 

[mr mando]

I completely agree with your rating of the players you mentioned, johnm! There's nothing second rate about them. There are also many players from other regions that are equally obscure and might be considered epigones of bigger stars, like e.g. Louie Lasky. But many of them are found to have such a strong and individual characteristic in their playing, if you only thake the time and effort to listen to them.

That's one of the additional benefits of this thread, that you really have to listen intensively!

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I am glad you are enjoying the thread, mr mando.  I'm certainly a believer in listening intensively.  You get so much more out of music that way.

I've got a new puzzler for anyone who is interested.  The song is "Sun Don't Shine" by Teddy Williams, and there are just two questions:
   * What playing position/tuning is Teddy Williams using to play the song?
   * How and where does he play his signature lick over the I chord?



Oh mama, mmmmm, I cried all night long
Oh mama, now, cried all night long
I ain't had no lovin', honey, since you been gone

Oh, sun don't shine like it used to shine
Oh, the sun don't shine like it used to shine
Used to shine in your door, now it shines in mine

Where it ain't no lovin', then ain't no gettin' along
Where it ain't no lovin', then ain't no gettin' along
'Cause somebody done been here, stole my woman and gone
 

Please use only your ears and guitars to figure out the answers to the questions--no transcription software, and please wait until Wednesday morning, October 1, before posting your answers to the questions so that plenty of people get a chance to hear the song and form their own answers to the questions without being influenced by early responses.  Thanks to all who have participated for observing the guidelines, it really makes the process work better for everyone, I think.
All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

I'm going to say Spanish capoed at 3rd fret. The lick? Not so sure (as usual), but it sounds a bit like first string pull off frets 3-2-0 followed by hammer on 5th string third fret.

[One-Eyed Ross]

I'm agreeing with Scratchy on this one.

The tuning just really sounds Spanish, and B flat (capo 3) is the key...the lick sounds like, as Scratchy said, a descending 3,2,0 on the first string, but the hammer to me sounds like a 3rd string, 3rd fret ( a flattend 3rd).

Maybe I need to keep listening...

(Edited to change 2nd to 3rd.  I can't count some days)....

[Old Man Ned]

This one's really been puzzling me.  It sounds so simple, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but I just can't get my head around what he's doing.  All I've got is that it's in Bb, most likely Open G tuning capoed at the 3rd as has been suggested and it has a 'minor' feel about it.  I've also been tuning down a whole step and playing out of a C shape but I'm more include to go with the open G tuning.  For the I chord he's hitting the 3rd fret 1st string to get the high note and 3rd fret 3rd string to open string at some point and hitting the open 5th string but putting it all together is doing my head in.  Great recording though. 

[Norfolk Slim]

Im with the Spanish tuning cao 3 crowd.  That interval in the bass note (on the 1 chord) just shouts open G (A bit like McDowell's rhythm bit on a few short lines).

Closest I can get to the lick is 3rd fret first string then first string open.  Possibly with finger and thumb alternating so the thumb plays the open first string note (i.e. the secoind treble note in th he lick) to get the rhythmic effect.  Possibly with odd slight brushes of the second stirng...

Maybe 

Really like the tune.  Trancy.
 

[frankie]

The song is "Sun Don't Shine" by Teddy Williams, and there are just two questions:
   * What playing position/tuning is Teddy Williams using to play the song?

Standard tuning, A position - the IV chord cinches it for me

   * How and where does he play his signature lick over the I chord?

Bar the A chord at the 2nd fret with the index finger, fret the 3rd fret of the 5th string with the 2nd finger, then he pulls off to the open 5th string, following with a thumb brush on the A chord. The treble lick starts on the 3rd fret of the 1st string, followed by the open 1st string played along with the thumb brush on the A chord.

I think his Down Home Blues would make a good puzzler!

[David Kaatz]

Spanish - open G, capoed 3rd fret.

The picking/syncopation on this is really challenging, partly because he varies the length of his bars - sometimes 6 beats long. Hard to tell where 1 is.
I am trying to separate the guitar into three distinct parts, but I can't get my fingers to play them right. Bass, middle, and treble parts.

The bass line is like this in general:
Play the open 5th string on the 'and' of the second beat of the measure The last eighth note of the measure is fretted on the 3rd fret, 5th string, and then pulled off to play the open 5th string on the down beat of the next measure.

The middle part, open 3rd and 4th strings, are struck on the 'and' of the 1st beat, then directly on the 3rd and 4th beats.
 
The occasional high part is fretted at the 3rd fret, 1st string, pulled off to the open 1st string. I think this part starts on the 'and' of the 3rd beat of the measure.

Now I'll go read the other solutions 

Dave

[banjochris]

Gotta go with Frankie on this one - A standard. The V chord has that E sound as he walks up to it, and I think there's an open D string sounding during the little lick at the very end. That pull-off off of the first string third fret is like a pull-off to nowhere!
Chris

[Prof Scratchy]

Beginning to get the hang of this now: if I think it's it in Spanish, it's actually in A! Yes, indeed it is!

[Norfolk Slim]

If Scratch is now going A, then its definitely G so Im sticking with that :-)

The IV chord sounded to me like it was barred at the fifth rather than open, which encouraged me towards the G but Im at work and can't relisten / experiment with A at the moment.