Topic: Buddy Moss's Guitar Playing--Queries and Tips

[waxwing]

Hey John M.,
    Boy, had some free time yesterday to really work on putting the first verse vocal for "New Lovin' Blues" together with the guitar, and get the break memorized. This song is just so fun, and I'm at that point where things are moving and I don't want to play anything else. But, let me tell you, there's a reason Buddy tuned down two steps. The vocal is definitely going over the top of my range in standard drop D. It's tough to detune a whole note just to perform it, then tune back up. Maybe I could couple it with RW's Rollin' Stone at the end of a set. Or, maybe I'll stretch my range a little more with this one. Sounds great on my Style O, as I knew it must with those great midrange runs. Amazing that Buddy was only 20 when he recorded this.
    I had a couple fingering variations I wanted to run by you. Both have to do with places where you're playing the G string with the index finger and then brushing up on the two treble strings. One is in the standard G measure, after the hammer on and thumb roll, and the second is two measures later in the D measure of the eight bar 'verse' version, after the thumb jump from the sixth to the fourth string. Assuming that the treble brush is handled by the middle finger, these would be the only times the middle finger came into play. It seems easier for me to follow down with the thumb to get the G string and brush the treble strings with the index. Perhaps I'm over analyzing, but what I think makes it easier for me is that the little couples ( and,two ; and,three ; and,four) become thumb,index ; thumb,index ; index,thumb. I also like the idea of not using the middle finger. I like to either use it a lot or not at all, I guess. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had any ideas, pro or con. I'm sure once you've got it in your fingers, one way or the other, it doesn't really matter, eh?
    I also have been listening to Buddy playing it quite a bit to get the vocal, and it really seems to me that in the third bar of the break, that he does slide into the quarter note on the fourth beat, Dwee-dee-dee Dee-dee-dee Dwee-dee-dee Dweeee. 'Course, I'm listening to the mp3 John D. put up which is pretty fuzzy. I gotta get the Document CD. I really want to hear his Red River Blues, as well.
    Well, my real purpose in posting was to let you know how much I'm enjoying learning this song and really getting into it. Thanks, John.
All for now.
John C

[Johnm]

Hi John C.,
I'm glad to hear you are enjoying "New Lovin' Blues"--I can tell you're deep into it from the level of detail you are discussing.  Certainly, I would think that any changes you would make that seem more natural to your own way of executing things, and which produce the sound you are looking for are all to the good.  I think right hand issues pertaining to transcription of historic recordings are always more conjectural than left-hand ones.  Left hand most often seems reasonably straight-forward to me.  Right hand is another matter all together (think Robert Petway's "Catfish").  It goes toward making me appreciate the extent to which the aural tradition of learning the music is enriched by the additional visual input of seeing someone actually play the piece, see how they hit the strings, etc.
Anyhow, it sounds like you have things well in hand.  I look forward to hearing you play "New Lovin'" next time I see you.
all best,
John

[Slack]

Hi JohnM,

Things have settled down a bit so I am returning to "New Lovin Blues' and have a technical question (day jobs are tough!).

Lots of 'rolled bass' in this tune and my tendency is to keep rolling, but not sure if that is the best way to tackle it - for example on the G7, my tendency is to thumb roll the bass from the 5th to the 4th right into the 3rd, before using my index on the trebles.  I guess the alternative is to play the 3rd string with the index, but it seems you need to be pretty quick to follow with the rest of the treble. How are you playing it?  (and hope the description is clear enough!)

cheers,
JohnD

[Johnm]

Hi John D.,
I know exactly the place you're talking about.  I have been playing it with a thumb roll from the 5th to the 4th string, followed by an index pick-up on the 3rd string before the treble pluck.  I'm going to try the way you suggested, though.  It makes a lot of sense in terms of use of the right hand, and I have a hunch that the more you use the thumb in these passages, the stronger a rhythmic emphasis and feel you will end up with.  More and more I'm feeling like a lot of the players like Buddy Moss, Blind Boy Fuller, and Blind Lemon, with notably active thumbs, used the thumb on all six strings, especially when playing runs.  I think you're on to something.
all best,
John  

[Slack]

Hi JohnM,

From your lesson description, it sounded like you were using your index (which made me paranoid <g>).  I think there is a place in the A of the intro and the D too (6th to 4th to 3rd).

Yes, that ol' thumb can kinda make or break things rythmically - so thought I'd check to make sure I'm not swimming uphill.  Some time ago I made a conscious effort to try and free up my thumb (e.g. quit assigning it the bottom three strings) - so maybe my unconscious thumb is making an inch of progress.

The song is really a blast to play - I've got the intro and the verse (hopefully it won't be too difficult for me to sing over!) and anxious to get to the break and back to that fabulous Dsus7.  I've also got sore fingers - I need to get back in shape.

Looking forward to your observation.

cheers,
JohnD

[waxwing]

Hey, Johns M&D,
That's the same thing I was talking about near the end of the New Lovin' Blues thread under Lyrics and such. It works great for me in all the places you mentioned, Slack, and in the D before the A of the verse, as well. I been practicing it a lot this  week, it's Third Thursday and I don't want to muff the intro this time.
All for now.
John C.

[Slack]

Hi JohnC,

Sure enough!  (Somewhat depressing that it has taken me 6 weeks to get back to this tune!).  I think I'll move your message (and JohnM's response) over here as it has some other technical stuff too - it seems to me we ought to discuss the actual playing of this tune here in the JohnM lesson corner.

cheers,
JohnD

[Pan]

Hi all.

I've always conidered the little right hand interval tremolo that the piano players do, simply undoable with guitar. That is until I heard Buddy Moss play "In The Evening" on the George Mitchell collection.

If I'm not mistaken, Moss plays out of dropped D, and the lick is nothing fancy, regarding the fretting hand; a double stop on the 4th and 2nd strings starting on the 7th fret, descending to the 5th, and to the 4th fret on th D-string and to the 3rd fret on the B-string.
But somehow Moss manages to play a triplet on the D-string and insert the 2nd string notes a little off time in there as well.

How does one do that? It's relatively easy to play tripets if every 2nd note is on the other string, but here the 4th string triplets are consistent. Also the 2nd string is being picked or plucked separately, not being strummed with the 4th string? It sounds like Moss might be using a thumbpick.

I'll insert an mp3 of the solo in question. Any insight or thoughts are welcome. Can you point other examples of this technique being used by cb guitar players?

Cheers

Pan

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[Johnm]

Hi Pan,
I reckon Buddy is playing out of E position in standard tuning, tuned low (the turn-around at the end of the solo makes this clear, I think).  It sounds to me like he is doing the passage all thumb and index finger, holding those two digits like an extended claw and just going back and forth, playing harmonized sixths in time.  Describing it is a hell of a lot easier than doing it!  He really was a formidable player.
All best,
Johnm

[Pan]

Thanks Johnm.

I guess in my enthusiasm about my finding, I completely forgot that you have already listed all the tunings and positions on the George Mitchell Collection. 

Your explanation makes perfect sense but I doubt that I'll master the technique described anytime soon, if ever! Indeed Moss was a fantastic player!

Cheers

Pan

[LB]

Yeah and many of his passages that sound very easy are deceptively hard. Some of my favorites are the runs and licks he fits into Chesterfield Blues but also the bounce and swing he puts on the song in the process is damned near impossible to match. Moss was a monster, and he used to tell people Weaver was the best one of them all. So it must have been pretty amazing to have listened to them in their 40s all together or in duos. By the way I have a couple extra of the Wollensack tape decks like George used to record all these sessions, if anyone is into them email me sometime. I've got a collection of those and wire recorders I might have to scale down sometime in the next few years. I love the TONE those recorders got with Moss (warm-fat).

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've had occasion recently to transcribe "I'm Sittin' Here Tonight" and "Baby, You're the One For Me", both of which can be found on "Buddy Moss, Volume 3" on Document, and I have to say, especially after "Baby, You're the One For Me", that I think that Buddy Moss's playing was little short of miraculous.  It's not hard to see why Rev. Davis held his playing in very high esteem.  Working in A position in standard tuning, Buddy shows a virtually inexhaustible supply of licks, but with just the right amount of repetition, sparkling execution and a rhythmic plasticity that was very rare in the style.  The way he moved seamlessly from an underlying triple feel to an intense duple feel is something that but a few rhythmic masters like Bo Carter, Robert Johnson, Skip James and Big Joe Williams were able to match.  There is so much to learn from Buddy Moss's playing.
All best,
Johnm

[Nearsighted James]

John,

Amen on your Buddy Moss comments! I would love to see you do a 1 or 2 disc lesson on Buddy for SGGW. I've already gone through your MJH and Jackson videos, and I love your teaching style. Keep up the great work!

All the best, Nearsighted James

[Johnm]

Hi Nearsighted James,
Buddy's skills and versatility definitely could support a DVD devoted to just his playing--perhaps in the future.  There are two of his tunes, "New Lovin' Blues" and ""Oh Lordy Mama" included on the "Atlanta Blues" DVD I did for Stefan Grossman, and "New Lovin'" and "Insane Blues" are included in the book "John Miller's Country Blues Guitar Collection".  Thanks for the good words, and welcome to Weenie Campbell!
All best,
Johnm

[ScottN]

Hi John,

I see you've entered some more of Buddy's lyrics and keys into Weeniepedia and I had a question on the keys with Weaver...how likely would it be that Weaver would be the one playing slide out of Vestapol with Moss in standard?  It doesn't seem there is much (if any) of Buddy in Vestapol (or slide) later in his recorded output (unless the Josh White duets are Buddy in Vestapol).  Weaver has quite a few slide pieces and I would assume Vestapol would be a common tuning for these?  As always, I am amazed by your ears, would you say the Vestapol / slide parts are compatible with being able to easily sing over them?  Thanks as always for any insights :-)

Scott