Topic: 'A World Unknown'

[waxwing]

Sure, Riv, but they are presented pretty clearly in this thread if you care to read it.

The first difficulty comes in the first verse of Down the Dirt Road Blues, at the end of the first and second lines. I'll scan through the thread and find all the various theories for this one. If I miss any please add them in.

"to a world unknown"
"to where I don't know"
"too well I know"
"to (the) one I know"
"to wander North"
"to Illinois"

It is to this issue that I presented the evidence of Patton singing the word "Illinois" in Rattlesnake Blues, for comparison. He even sings it in the same end of line format where he typically stretches out the vowel sounds.

The second difficulty arises at the end of the second verse and the two theories are:

"find that something with"
"find that bastard with"

You yourself stated at some point that you heard "dastard" and that you thought Patton was self censoring.

The only other difficulty, I think, is in the fourth verse and the theories are:

"over sea blues"
"O. C. blues"

I'm sorry, Riv, but I can't take your "tomahawks and recreational chopping" theory seriously. I think the only through line in the piece is that he is leaving an unfaithful woman and feels a lot of uncertainty about where he might go. He loosely expresses this by doing what Andrew and others have stated, collecting various "floating" verses which he then bends somewhat for his own needs and adding perhaps an original verse or two. As far as I can tell we are only in disagreement as to how he may have changed these lines.

[Edit to add] Thanks for your considered opinion, dj.

Wax

[Stuart]

John:

I just did some time under the headphones. To begin, I definitely agree that in Down the Dirt Road, the fourth "Something" (the one you and Elijah hear as "Bastard") requires further attention. If aural pattern recognition is what we are basing ourselves on, then the fourth pronunciation is definitely different than the first three. Whether or not CP is singing "Bastid" is another matter, something that still needs work, but IMHO, the jury is still out--or should be--on this one. Stick to your guns and stand your ground.

Regarding Shelby, "Illinois," I definitely hear the "--oy" drawn out--at the end of this word. I strongly believe that the word is "Illinois." I do hear the similarity with it's counterpart in question in Down the Dirt Road, but I don't hear the final as "--oy" in Dirt Road. I agree that there is a similarity, but there are a lot of similarities between words. It's the differences that I hear that lead me to believe that in Dirt Road, the word in question is not "Illinois," although "Illinois" certainly works with regard to a possible meaning in this context. I work with language, phonology (otherwise known as "phoneyology") and with rhymes (although not in English), so I take the rhyme scheme as evidence that the word in question is something other than "Illinois." N.b. that I used the word "evidence" and not the word "proof."

dj:

I understand what you mean re: the conflicted feelings. My personal take is that we should never give up and continue to be extremely rigorous and diligent in our efforts to arrive at the most accurate transcriptions possible. I don't think that any evidence is ever really moot. It may be the case that some of the recordings are not of a quality that will ever allow a final definitive version of the lyrics to be agreed upon--at least not unanimously. I agree that the more ears, the better, but the truth or correct answer is not necessarily arrived at democratically. Sometimes it is the lone dissenting view that leads to the right answer, so it's important that all views be given a fair shake. I wouldn't want the person with the right answer to give up because he or she felt outnumbered, out voted, or in an unpopular minority. IMHO, the important thing is to ultimately arrive at the right answer or correct transcription.

[Rivers]

Thanks Wax.

Everybody, please assume your audience doesn't read the other forums, so mentioning convos that happened elsewhere, without providing a detailed background explanation, is just confusing to those of us without the time at the moment to hang out on IGS etc

I'm firmly in the "Illinois" camp myself as I stated, in fact I first proposed it, if you read back. Not that I want the credit or anything but I've never seen any other transcription using 'Illinois', that was entirely my hearing. Good for me. UB, it's a matter of national importance you find that earlier female singer reference you mentioned... if you find it I'll certainly reconsider.

I also think 'dastard' is Charlie Patton trying to be nice for the mic to get a GA rating, so to speak. The 'chopping' verse needs work, I was just throwing the tomahawk theory out there because frankly no-one had anything more convincing, to me anyway, at that point.

I think we can nail these things and should never give up trying. Meaningless gobbledygook is just that, usually. It's a substitute for understanding, a failure to bridge sound and meaning.

We should give these guys the benefit of the doubt. If a proposed transcription don't make sense, is terminally weak or wildly out of context it's probably just plain wrong. Just my opinion. Dogged determination, don't let go, shake it til it's dead. That's what we're all about, yes?

If you're in a hurry you should go with what fits, and sings, best, for you. Personally I'm not in a hurry, fortunately I don't have a deadline, and when something's already been a mystery for 80 years now...

I mean just a few years ago some people thought the Titanic would never be found. Heh! Failure of imagination, one on a very long list down through the ages.

[Stuart]

The second difficulty arises at the end of the second verse and the two theories are:

"find that something with"
"find that bastard with"

You yourself stated at some point that you heard "dastard" and that you thought Patton was self censoring.

I spent some more time on this one tonight. I hear something like "dustid" or "dustard." I don't hear an initial "b-" ("bastard") which is a bi-labial--meaning the lips close (b,p,m). The point of articulation of the final -t in "that" is the same as the initial d- in "dustard." That just means in this case the tongue is in the same place, right up against the ridge behind the upper front teeth, The difference is aspiration. There's continuity between "that" and "dastard." If CP was saying "bastard," the initial "b-," with the lips together, should be audible. Maybe CP got a little tongue tied and mispronounced "bastard" as "dustard," but that's just a wild guess.

In any case, I don't hear "something," although "something" certainly works as an attractive lexical choice in this context.

[dj]

I spent some more time on this one tonight. I hear something like "dustid" or "dustard."

This is getting interesting!  Listening to the version of "Down The Dirt Road" from the CD that came with the 2004 Blues Images calendar at various speeds and with various EQ settings, I think Stuart has it almost right.  At the clearest setting I can find - 35% or 50% speed and "Flute Select" EQ on Transcribe! It sounds like Patton is singing "Duster".  The initial 'd" sound is clearly enunciated separately from the "t" of "that".  I don't hear any indication of a "d" at the end of the word before Patton goes to "with".

So the possibilities as I now hear them are:

   1: dustard - changing "bastard" on the fly to "keep it clean"
   2: dustard - an idiosyncratic pronunciation of "dastard", as in "a dastardly fellow"
   3: duster - possibly related to a broom duster and the whole "dust my broom" thing

I'm not sure which interpretation I'd go with now.  I'm leaning ever so slightly towards number 1 above, but even a gentle breeze could sway me in another direction at this point.


       

[Stuart]

I  just listened a few more times. I definitely hear a final -d before "with." It still sounds like "dusterd" or "dustid" to me. What did CP mean or have in mind when he used this word in Down the Dirt Road?

[dj]

It does sound like there's a "d" on the end of the word at full speed.  But slowed down a bit, the "d" disappears.  I think the sound at full speed is just the transition of Patton's mouth from the "r" of whatever it is he's singing to the "w" of "with". 

I'm not too concerned with the lack of a "d" at the end of the mystery word, as I think dropping something like that would be well within the parameters of Charley Patton's pronunciation.  I just think we need to consider solutions that do not contain the final "d".

[waxwing]

Attached is a snippet (high quality mp3 due to it's short length) of the word in question, played at 70% speed and no EQ, for any who wish to give a listen.

I think slowing down too much, and EQing out part of the sound, can both really rob the ear of critical data and often convince us that a lot more [Edit - or less, as you state above dj] is going on than in reality (waiting for the next hallucination joke). I think 70%  speed is still within understandable range yet gets things just a little clearer.

I don't really see how one can make such a definitive call between a 'b' and a 'd' sound here. They are both plosives, one created with the lips and one with the tongue on the back of the teeth. When spoken with less than perfect diction they are barely discernible. As has been pointed out consistently in this thread, Charley's diction was not the greatest, and as Stuart points out with the word "that" just before, he already has the tongue at least near the back of the teeth, and eliding the 't' from "that" and the 'b' from "bastard", might give a plosive with both the lips and the tongue/teeth involved (I tried this and it is very possible to do), making for a very difficult call. Certainly not enough to rule out that he is intending to say a word starting with a 'b'.

As to the vowel sound, I am hearing a dipthong instead of the simple 'u' sound. I hear a sound that goes "uhh-aah" as he shifts from a lower note to a higher one. Charley commonly morphs vowel sounds as he changes pitch as can be heard at the end of almost every line in this and most of his songs. For instance " she tried to keep it hee-aah-id" No one here is saying that he said "heed" instead of "hid'?

So, I 'hear' him saying " tha' buh-aah-stard with"

But how about context and meaning? Well, UB has given us a treatise on the sexuality implied by all the roots of this line in various other forms. But to me, far from being romantically poetic, Charley is a bit of an emotional realist. Where McTell and others may want to maintain the euphemism, and seem to still have the female genetalia as their goal, Charley is one to express what he is really feeling: He's over the woman, whom he is singing about leaving, he just wants to kill the bastard she's fooling around with. The song reaches its emotional height musically, with the next line regarding "chopping", as banjochris has pointed out.

I don't really see why, in the 1920s, at one of his earliest sessions (?) Charley would think that "bastard" would need to be censored?

If we were going to select a word for a transcription, I think "bastard" is our best guess. If we need a note to say there is some disagreement and that some think he says "duster" or dastard", that's fine.

Wax

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[Stuart]

John: Thanks for taking the time and for going to the trouble to process and post the audio segment in question. I think that it's important that we listen to the same sample.

I still hear the initial as d- and a hint of a final -d. Again, this is just what I hear. I don't know if you could say that it is a definitive call, as again, I'm only stating what I hear--not what I think everyone should hear. I'm not too concerned about the vowel shape as there is certainly a range in which it could fall so that the word could be understood as "bastard" or perhaps as one of the "d-words," maybe "duster,"--functioning as a very local slang term with sexual connotations, the meaning of which has been lost. (This is just a far fetched guess to illustrate one possibility, and one that I wouldn't bet the family jewels on.)

The more ears, the better, so I'll be interested to read what others hear. So don't hesitate to post your views, as we're all in this together.

When we select a word for the transcription, we might bracket the other possibilities with a convention such as "bastard [alt: "duster"]." That way we would have a variorum edition.

As for "heed" vs. "hid," I think that context makes it clear and eliminates any ambiguity. Pronunciations vary. I guess the next step is to do actual field work in dialectology. (Just kidding!)

[dj]

Yes, thanks for posting the audio snippet, wax. 

What I hear, phonetically, is [d] [uh]-[uh] [st] [er/ur] (d?), meaning the word starts with a d sound, the first consonant is a short u, and is the same on both notes it is sung to, there's an st in the middle, then another short u followed by an r (which in English could be written er or ur or just possibly ir) then, just a hint of a d sound which seems to me to be just Patton's mouth changing shape. 

I feel like we're closing in on this a bit, and would agree with Stuart that the more people we can get to listen to this, the better off we'll be.

   

[Rivers]

I hear a 'd' on the beginning and either a 'd' or 't' on the end. The initial sound could be a mispronounced, or generally obscured, 'b' I guess, but I think I hear 'd'

I'm still not sure we've got this line. It's almost like the last two syllables, '-sturd with' as we have it now, of the line could be 'somewhere', it cuts off a bit too quickly so I went back to the recording.

[Stuart]

I Googled "duster slang definitions" which led me to Cassell's Dictionary of Slang. A few of the definitions listed are as follows:

Duster n.2 [1930s] (US Tramp) One who steals from freight trains or box cars.

Duster n.3 [1940s] (US Black) the act of moving; usu. In phr. dig a duster, thus COLLAR A DUSTER UP THE LADDER

Duster n.4 [1940s] (US Black) the buttocks, the posterior. [RUSTY-DUSTY]

There's also a 60s-70s usage: a cigarette laced with heroin or marijuana

Edited to add: Link: http://tinyurl.com/csvkuc

The dates can be misleading as often a word, phrase or usage can be in use and circulation long before its "officially documented."

Another possibility is a "duster" as in one who works in the fields dusting crops, and what that may refer to by extension. Again, just a possibility.

I'm not suggesting that this should be used as evidence to make the case for the word in question being "duster." But if "duster" is in fact what Charley sang, there are a few meanings that fit.

[waxwing]

Well, while we are parsing meaning here...

As I was reading through UB's treatise on "My rider's got a mojo", I noticed that he quoted Charley as:

Patton?s verse replaces mojo with somethin? in a bit of repetitive wordplay (?my rider got somethin?, she tryin?a keep it hid/Lord, I got somethin? to find that somethin? with?).

In spite of the fact that both Fahey and Spottswood agree with him, I don't see how one can transcribe the line as "rider got something. I've attached another 70% speed recording (entire 2nd verse, Riv, so you can hear the end of "with") and it seems clear to me, especially in the second line, that he is saying "rider had something" (Dispute this if you must, but it's clearly not "got", which you can hear him say quite clearly in the 3rd line.) Not only has Patton changed the nouns ("mojo" to "something" and "bastard", or whatever) but the tense ("rider's got" to "rider had") and really he has changed the repetitive structure somewhat and pretty clearly, the meaning.

[Edit to add] No, he doesn't say "has". There is a clear "d" sound before the "s" of "something" in the second line. Lowering the speed beyond 70% and EQing out the bass may distort this so I would advise against those extremes.

Now we could say that Charley was totally unconscious and that's how his use of the "floating" verse just happened to come out, but that's an awful lot of changes. Or, given the possible context that he is singing about the uncertainty of leaving home because of an unfaithful lover, perhaps the floating verse suggested a far more pointed meaning to him, within the context of his song, and he changed it to reflect that meaning. By changing his rider's possession of the "thing" to the past tense he makes it clear that he has abandoned the double entendre referring to a body part. She had it in the past, yet she is trying, in the present, to keep it hid? I'll offer up the obvious, an affair with another man, and you guys can find other alternatives, I'm sure.

But, if y'all decide to go with "duster" or some other alternative to "bastard" I think you can focus more on derogatory names for a man and be relatively clear Charley's not talking about her "buttocks".-G-

Wax

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[dj]

You're right, it sure isn't "got".  I'm not so sure it's not "has", though...

[Rivers]

That was nice and clear, I'm now pretty sure I hear:

My rider'd somethin', she tried to keep it hid
My rider'd somethin', she tried to keep it hid
Oh I got somethin', mm, find that b(d)astard with

"rider'd" being a contraction of "rider had" obviously. Makes sense given the context you're proposing.

I think it's "bastard", he sounds like he has a cold elsewhere in the song so I can easily imagine how it could come out with a "d" sound.

So basically I'm convinced.