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Author Topic: The Turnaround  (Read 4128 times)

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Offline Bunker Hill

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The Turnaround
« on: June 01, 2009, 04:33:47 AM »
Tony Russell and I were at an gathering where a musician put forward the proposition that "Robert Johnson invented the turnaround" and that we wouldn't find examples earlier than that. Being merely a fan this is all Greek to me, so I pass it on to those for whom it isn't.  ;D

Offline frankie

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2009, 05:34:39 AM »
confining oneself to attributing the adjective "false" to that statement would be an act of charity.

Offline Rivers

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2009, 05:52:44 AM »
Very funny post, thanks BH!  :P

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2009, 09:13:32 AM »
Not being a musician I wouldn't know a musical turnarond if it bit me in the backside. The guy who made the remark was specifically talking about turnarounds in recorded blues. Does this subtle difference make the question I posed seem less derisible to you guys? I would really like to know. Thanks

Offline uncle bud

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 11:56:35 AM »
No, said gentleman should still have had a bag tugged over his head and been escorted from the building.

In fairness, without knowing exactly what he said and what musical terms and context he was using, and how he is defining turnaround, one could say that Robert Johnson's turnarounds are now famous and are early, classic examples of turnarounds that are today used and abused by every bar band within spitting distance of a beer tap.

For me, a turnaround is simply a musical snippet occurring at the end of a musical form, like a 12 bar blues, that leads back to the beginning of the form. This could be a quick sequence of chords, some fingerpicked bits with a descending bassline (or ascending melody or whatever). It "turns around" and goes back to the beginning of the musical form, e.g., the next twelve bar verse.

For a classic Robert Johnson example, take Sweet Home Chicago. Think of the the quick sequence of fingerpicked chords after the end of the 3rd vocal line: he sings, "Back to the land of California, to my sweet home Chicago..." and then the guitar goes dee-dee-dee dee-dee-dee dee dah dah etc., leading back into the next verse. This quick sequence of fingerpicked chords is the turnaround, leading back to the beginning of the musical form and the start of the next verse ("Oh, baby don't you want to go....")

But examples abound that predate Robert Johnson. Take Lemon Jefferson's first recorded blues, Got the Blues, the quick descending chords after the end of the third vocal line "You take a high brown woman, man, she's hard to fool" then dee-dum dee-dum dee-dum dum etc. goes the guitar leading back to the beginning of the form and the start of the next verse. Or take the sequence of chords followed by a bass line at after the 3rd line in Lemon's Black Horse Blues. He sings "I wanna laugh and talk with a long-haired teasin' brown" and the chords then go dee dee dee dee ba-dum ba-dum. That's a turnaround too, leading back to next verse.

Classic Robert Johnson turnarounds like one finds in Sweet Home Chicago or Kindhearted Woman end on the V chord (or Five chord, in English), which creates a harmonic tension that then resolves back to a I chord (or One chord) as the next verse begins. Off the top of my head, this is more modern. In the Lemon songs above, for instance, the turnaround ends on the I chord, not the V chord, and then the next verse starts on the I chord as well.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 01:14:50 PM by uncle bud »

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 12:30:18 PM »
Thanks UB for taking the time to explain and illuminate. The perpetrator of this will be well known to many UK comrades but I won't name and shame.... not in a public forum anyway. May I have your permission to pass this explanation to Tony?

Offline uncle bud

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 01:12:37 PM »
By all means, though it might do to wait for my description to be vetted by some of our resident experts, as I wouldn't want to pass on an inaccurate description. Also, hopefully Tony won't be put off by technical terms like "dee-dee-dee" and "ba-dum". ;)

Anyway, as I said, could be the perpetrator was speaking of a specific musical context for RJ's turnarounds and we've missed something.

Offline Johnm

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 03:09:23 PM »
Hi all,
I agree in the main with uncle bud's description of the blues turn-around and agree altogether with his description of its function.  I differ only in that I think for a turn-around to function as its name implies, turning the form around and sending you back to the beginning of the form, it needs to end on the V chord, so that a final resolution to the key of the song requires another run-through the form, continuing on again until the final verse, in which the conclusion of the form finally stops on a I chord, drawing the song to a musical close, home at last.
I also agree that unless Robert Johnson's turn-around was described in such detail as to be classified as "the first blues turn-around of this particular type", it is nonsense to say that Robert Johnson was the originator of the blues turn-around.  Lonnie Johnson's entire repertoire of medium tempo blues with the same basic accompaniment abounded with turn-arounds, and I'd be very surprised if the practice didn't extend all the way back to the Classic Blues.
All best,
Johnm

Offline frankie

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2009, 04:52:49 PM »
technical terms like "dee-dee-dee" and "ba-dum"

look who knows so much!   :P :P

Offline Rivers

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 08:28:06 PM »
I somewhat disagree that it has to end on the V to be called a turnaround. There are a lot of substitutions you can use to set up the next verse, the dominant is just the most used one. My definition of turnaround is a passage of play at the end of the verse that leads the melody into the next verse, with no strictures on which interval or substitution is involved in achieving that.

RJ had some good ones ending on the V, the most well known and clever one being the counterpoint out of an A position in Sweet Home Chicago that's been flogged to death ever since, including by me. Personally I'd rather listen to where he stole the melody/lyrics from, Kokomo Blues by Scrapper Blackwell, much subtler all round.

Always landing on the dominant V is a big component of the masses of bland formulaic 12 bar blues we are stuck with today. As superb a player as Robert Johnson was, I see his influence as unfortunately negative in that respect.

Offline blueshome

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2009, 02:30:14 AM »
Aren't we taking the bait!

Alan, did the guy  also happen to mention that Robert Johnson invented the blues? Got there just before Eric I believe.  >:D >:D >:D

Offline dj

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2009, 03:37:27 AM »
Don't forget the piano players.  You can hear Leroy Carr play that "dee-dee-dee dee-dee-dee dee dah dah etc." turnaround that Robert Johnson uses in "Sweet Home Chicago" at the end of the verses of "Mean Old Train Blues", which was recorded in 1928, 8 years before "Sweet Home Chicago".

Offline doctorpep

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2009, 04:42:23 AM »
Robert Johnson didn't invent the Blues; Kenny Wayne did. Kenny Wayne taught Patton, who taught House, who taught Johnson, and all those guys from Texas and Georgia don't matter at all=)
"There ain't no Heaven, ain't no burning Hell. Where I go when I die, can't nobody tell."

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Offline uncle bud

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2009, 08:07:15 AM »
Hi all,
I agree in the main with uncle bud's description of the blues turn-around and agree altogether with his description of its function.  I differ only in that I think for a turn-around to function as its name implies, turning the form around and sending you back to the beginning of the form, it needs to end on the V chord, so that a final resolution to the key of the song requires another run-through the form, continuing on again until the final verse, in which the conclusion of the form finally stops on a I chord, drawing the song to a musical close, home at last.
I also agree that unless Robert Johnson's turn-around was described in such detail as to be classified as "the first blues turn-around of this particular type", it is nonsense to say that Robert Johnson was the originator of the blues turn-around.  Lonnie Johnson's entire repertoire of medium tempo blues with the same basic accompaniment abounded with turn-arounds, and I'd be very surprised if the practice didn't extend all the way back to the Classic Blues.

Thanks for that explanation, John. I'll point out the above then disqualifies my examples from Lemon earlier (in case you're passing things along, BH). The function of the V chord in a turnaround is the way I first learned the definition of turnaround as well, via jazz people, though I'd come to view it differently.

I know I've heard players refer to certain characteristic passages as turnarounds when they end on a I chord. This is inaccurate, I guess. In the example of Black Horse Blues, that little chord sequence at the end of the form sure has all the characteristics of a turnaround and if Lemon only went to the V chord it would be a textbook example to my mind. I'm sure I've heard the typical C7 F Ab C chord sequence that is part of another textbook turnaround (C7 F Ab C G) ending on the C and not going to the G. I can't put my finger on a tune at the moment. But with the lack of the G chord (i.e., the V chord for BH, now that he's a music theorist) in that sequence, it is then not a turnaround? Even though it pretty much functions as one?

Re. Lonnie Johnson, his use of turnarounds was undoubtedly a big influence on RJ, one can hear it fairly easily. One thing I noticed just listening to a few Lonnie tunes (like Racketeer's Blues, She's Making Whoopee in Hell Tonight) is that he sometimes does a turnaround at the end of an instrumental break or intro, going to a V chord, but in the vocal verses will often end on a I chord, avoiding a turnaround and playing his signature lick or a variation. Then on a tune like I'm Nuts About That Gal, he ends with the V chord in every verse, but for the end of the solo, ends on a I chord. Go figure.

So what does one call a musical sequence at the end of a form that has all the characteristics of a turnaround and does not end on a V chord, but a I chord instead? A tag?

technical terms like "dee-dee-dee" and "ba-dum"

look who knows so much!   :P :P

You won't learn that in just any music school...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 08:10:51 AM by uncle bud »

Offline Bunker Hill

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2009, 11:45:07 AM »
Thanks for all the interesting info which has prompted me to find out exactly what was said. Apparently he was using the term in this sense with regard to RJ : "the last bar of a 12 bar using the V7 chord to resolve to the I at the start of the next verse".

Offline GhostRider

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 02:23:35 PM »
Ladies, Gentlemen and Unkie Bud:

Just off the top of my head, Blind Blake did tons of turnarounds in the 1920's, Diddie-Wa-Diddie comes to mind, in C, ending the turnaround on G.

Interesting though that the famous RJ counterpoint turnaround in A (think "Kind Hearted Woman Blues") was first recorded by Funny Papa Smith (think "Mama, Quittin' and Leavin'") but ends on the I chord, not the V like RJ.

Alex

Offline Rivers

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 04:31:29 PM »
Sorry folks, I still disagree. It does not have to be the V or V7, that's just one flavor. A quick google will tell you that, and I did confirm it for myself before posting my dissenting opinion. For a more learned example than my post, see http://www.answers.com/topic/turnaround-music

The V7 is the most common turnaround last chord in post Robert Johnson blues and unfortunately has become the cliche that seems to have redefined the term.

Hey I love playing those da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da, dum --- ba-bum things too but that's just one form, there are millions. Just establishing a predictable phrase at the end of every verse is a turnaround technique. The interval is irrelevant except to categorize what kind of turnaround it is. I have noticed that the most satisfying t/a's (to me) are cadences, descending often with chromatic melody notes. But not always...

I put the dumbing-down of the turnaround in the same category as the playing of strict 12 bar patterns versus breaking it up with extra / missed bars... life was more interesting B.J. (before Johnson). Yes I already acknowledged he was a great player but the hype surrounding him does a great disservice to all the equally great players who found a zillion other ways to get into the next verse, as well as through the V
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 04:55:47 PM by Rivers »

Offline Johnm

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 07:40:40 PM »
Hi Mark,
In every instance except one in the article you cited, the chord preceding the resolution to the tonic was still in fact a V7 chord of some type; the exception was a flat V substitution for the V chord, which contains the same tritone as the V7 chord and is the same thing as a V7 chord with a flat V in the bass.  I think the  alternatives you allude to would be more meaningful if you could give any examples of them in historic recordings in the style.  In the main, anything more complex than winding up the 12th bar of a 12-bar blues with a V7 chord after a lead-in of more or less complexity is extremely hard to come by in Country Blues.  A very high percentage of Country Blues recordings don't employ turn-arounds at all.  The extent to which the alternative turn-arounds suggested in the article diverge from what was actually played by Country Blues players is a function of the turn-arounds presented there deriving from the harmonic language of Jazz, and considerably more modern Jazz, at that, than was current at the time Country Blues was in its most popular period.  The function of a turn-around is first and foremost harmonic:  to create a tension that makes the form want to start over rather than end, and however many upper voice chordal  extensions may be added or flat five substitutions are employed, you're still talking about a gussied up V7 chord.  
All best,
Johnm        
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 08:51:27 PM by Johnm »

Offline Johnm

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2009, 02:07:34 PM »
Hi Uncle Bud,
I think you answered your own question in your most recent previous post.  I would characterize a chordal progression at the conclusion of a blues form that starts on the I chord and concludes at the end of the form with the I chord as a tag, rather than a turn-around, since it doesn't end up producing the harmonic tension needed to send you back to the beginning of the form.  A tag functions simply as a final instrumental response to the tagline of a blues verse, and is fully contained in that verse's pass, whereas a turn-around's function spans the form break, generating musical momentum from one pass through the form to the next. 
A lot of the spectacular riffers of the earliest generation to record Country Blues, like Lemon Jefferson, Charley Patton and Furry Lewis particularly excelled at these tags, and in their "thriving on a riff" moments could perseverate on them, in some instances, lengthening a pass through the form by several bars.  Furry's "Dryland Blues" offers several examples of this.  I remember when I was transcribing the song, I found that passes through the form on his recording varied in length from 7 to 11 bars, depending on the length of his tag.  Lemon would often conclude his tags, however long he took them, with three downward quarter note strums of the I chord, bringing a pass to a close.  I don't think of any of these moments of Lemon's or Furry's or Patton's as turn-arounds, because they are harmonically circular, starting on I and resolving to I, yielding no concluding tension to push into the next verse.
All best,
Johnm       

Offline uncle bud

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2009, 08:35:10 AM »
Thanks John. More than the riff-like tags you refer to, it is the chordal progressions that have had me confused then, in particular those that are nearly the same as typical turnarounds but are lacking a final V chord. So if a musician plays a C7/F/Ab/C at the end of a twelve bar form but does not then go to a G chord to finish the chordal sequence, the form is in effect "closed" and therefore one can't call the sequence a turnaround. The resemblance of the progression to a classic turnaround and its place in the form explains why I have heard some guitar players refer to it (or comparable chord progressions at the end of a form) as such.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 08:36:20 AM by uncle bud »

Offline waxwing

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2009, 09:15:35 AM »
The thought occurs to me that non-players might benefit from some examples of both various turnarounds and tags. I'm out the door right now and am not sure I would have time to make such a recording before the weekend sometime. Anyone else with the inclination to either record themselves playing a few examples or edited cuts from various artists with a little identifying explanation, text or recorded?

Wax
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Offline Richard

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 01:14:06 PM »
Wax, good idea  :)
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline Coyote Slim

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Re: The Turnaround
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2009, 03:07:56 PM »
I can't believe no one has mentioned Tampa Red yet...

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Puttin' on my Carrhartts, I gotta work out in the field.

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