Topic: Blind Blake Guitar Positions/Keys

[uncle bud]

As I mentioned in the Notable Omissions thread, I've been putting together a list of Blind Blake's guitar positions and keys, as we've done for others on WeenieCampbell (see Keys to the Highway under Resources in the Main Menu on the left). I figured why not enlist Weenie help. Most of these are judged by ear, frequently without a guitar in hand. I'm fairly familiar with playing a certain amount of Blake (badly) and once you know a few tricks it's easy to hear the position he plays out of. I just jot them down as I listen to them. There are a few gaps, particularly for the pieces where he's playing with others. Blake was obviously a C and G guy. The tracklist follows the JSP 5-CD boxed set. I have not dealt with the actual pitch of the recordings yet: that will definitely require sitting down with the guitar! Any additions/corrections most welcome. Formatting will come later, when the pitches are dealt with. 

Disc 1	Position	Pitch
1. Dying Blues	C
2. Ashley St Blues	C
3. Early Morning Blues	C
4. West Coast Blues	C
5. West Coast Blues	C
6. West Coast Blues	C
7. Early Morning Blues	C
8. Early Morning Blues	C
9. Too Tight	G
10. Blake's Worried Blues	C
11. Come on Boys Let's Do That Messin' Around	G
12. Come on Boys Let's Do That Messin' Around	G
13. Tampa Bound	G
14. Skeedle Loo Doo Blues	C
15. Skeedle Loo Doo Blues	C
16. Stonewall Street Blues	G
17. State Street Men Blues
18. Down the Country	Vestapol
19. Back Biting Bee Blues	Dropped D
20. Wilson Dam	G
21. Bucktown Blues	C
22. Black Dog Blues	C
23. One Time Blues	A

Disc: 2
1. Bad Feelin' Blues	Dropped D
2. Dry Bone Shuffle	C
3. Dry Bone Shuffle	C
4. Dry Bone Shuffle	C
5. That Will Happen No More	G
6. Brownskin Mama Blues [Take 1]	C
7. Brownskin Mama Blues [Take 2]	C
8. Hard Road Blues	G
9. Hey Hey Daddy Blues	C
10. Sea Board Stomp	C
11. You Gonna Quit Me Blues	C
12. Steel Mill Blues	C
13. Southern Rag	C
14. He's in the Jailhouse Now	C
15. Wabash Rag	C
16. Doggin' Me Mama Blues	C
17. C C Pill Blues	C
18. Hot Potatoes	C
19. Southbound Rag	G	E flat
20. Pay Day Daddy Blues	C
21. Elzadie's Policy Blues	G	E flat?

Disc: 3
1. Good-Bye Mama Moan	C
2. Tootie Blues	C
3. That Lovin' I Crave	G
4. That Lonesome Rave	C
5. Terrible Murder Blues	A
6. Leavin' Gal Blues	C
7. No Dough Blues	C
8. Lead Hearted Blues	G
9. Let Your Love Come Down	F
10. Rumblin' and Ramblin' Boa Constrictor Blues	C
11. Bootleg Rum Dum Blues	G
12. Detroit Bound Blues	C
13. Beulah Land	G
14. Panther Squall Blues	G
15. Elzadie's Policy Blues
16. Pay Day Daddy Blues	C
17. Walkin' Across the Country	C
18. Search Warrant Blues	F
19. Rambin' Mama Blues	C
20. New Style of Loving	C
21. Back Door Slam Blues	C
22. Notoriety Woman Blues	F
23. Cold Hearted Mama Blues	G
24. Low Down Loving Gal	G
25. Sweet Papa Low Down	C

Disc: 4
1. Poker Woman Blues	C
2. Doing a Stretch	F
3. Fightin' the Jug	F
4. Hookworm Blues	C
5. Slippery Rag	C
6. Hastings St	G	LOW
7. Diddie Wah Diddie	C
8. Diddie Wah Diddie	C
9. Too Tight Blues, No. 2	G
10. Chump Man Blues	Dropped D
11. Ice Man Blues	C
12. Police Dog Blues	Vestapol
13. I Was Afraid of That, Pt. 2	C
14. Georgia Bound	C
15. Keep It Home	A
16. Keep It Home	A
17. Sweet Jivin' Mama	EADF#AD tuning, played in A
18. Lonesome Christmas Blues	C
19. Third Degree Blues	C

Disc: 5
1. Guitar Chimes	C
2. Blind Arthur's Breakdown	C
3. Baby Lou Blues	C
4. Cold Love Blues	G
5. Papa Charlie & Blind Blake Talk About It, Pt. 1	C
6. Papa Charlie & Blind Blake Talk About It, Pt. 2	C
7. Stingaree Man Blues	G
8. Itching Heel	C
9. You've Got What I Want	G
10. Cherry Hill Blues	E
11. Diddie Wah Diddie, No. 2	C
12. Hard Pushin' Papa	G
13. What a Lowdown Place the Jailhouse Is	C
14. Ain't Gonna Do That No More	C
15. Playing Policy Blues	G
16. Righteous Blues	C
17. Fancy Tricks	G
18. Rope Stretchin' Blues, Pt. 2	Am/C
19. Rope Stretchin' Blues, Pt. 1	Am/C
20. Rope Stretchin' Blues, Pt. 1	Am/C
21. Champagne Charlie Is My Name	C
22. Depression's Gone from Me Blues	E

With Ma Rainey:
Morning Hour Blues	G
Little Low Momma Blues	C
Grievin' Hearted Blues	G

with Charlie Spand:
Soon This Morning Blues	G
Fetch Your Water	?

with Gus Cannon (Banjo Joe):
Poor Boy, Long Ways From Home	F or G
Madison Street Rag	F or G
Jazz Gypsy Rag	C
Can You Blame the Colored Man	C
My Money Never Runs Out	C

Newly Discovered Paramount 13123 78
Night and Day Blues	G
Sun to Sun	A

[Johnm]

Good on you, Andrew, for getting this started!
All best,
Johnm

[Stuart]

Thanks, Andrew. It is the result of a lot of time and hard work on your part. Very commendable, to say the least.

[Rivers]

I find it astounding that Police Dog Blues is only one of two in Vestapol (pending any discussions). Given the creativity of the arrangement and excellent tricks I assumed he had worked at it a bit, not just dabbled with a couple of tunes.

[banjochris]

Great, Andrew -- it's a big job going through all of those. Here's some suggestions for the gaps, plus a few tunes not on the Blake JSP set:

Hot Potatoes   C
Southbound Rag   G (tuned very low, around E-flat)
Pay Day Daddy Blues 1   C
Elzadie's Policy Blues 1   G (again tuned very low)
Let Your Love Come Down   F
Beulah Land   G
Elzadie's Policy Blues 2 No Blake
Pay Day Daddy Blues 2 C
Hastings St.   G (tuned very low)
Keep It Home   A
Lonesome Christmas Blues   C
Third Degree Blues   C
Fancy Tricks G

Others:
Ma Rainey:
Morning Hour Blues   G
Little Low Momma Blues   C
Grievin' Hearted Blues   G

Charlie Spand:
Soon This Morning Blues   G
Fetch Your Water ?

Gus Cannon:
Poor Boy, Long Ways From Home   F
Madison Street Rag   F
Jazz Gypsy Rag   C   
Can You Blame the Colored Man   C
My Money Never Runs Out   C

Chris

[frankie]

Gus Cannon:
Poor Boy, Long Ways From Home   F

I know the absolute pitch is F, but Poor Boy sounds more like he's playing in G and tuned low.  The IV chord especially sounds more like a C than it does a B-flat to me.  I'll go back and listen later on something other than my laptop... same thing could apply to Madison Street Rag (from memory, I thought that one was in C), but I don't have access to that one right now.

That's a lot of work, Andrew.  I know I've gone through these at least twice with the intention of doing the same thing, but when it came to actually committing to typing it out, I gave up.

[Rivers]

Easiest way would be to maintain it in a spreadsheet and get Excel (or whatever) to spit out the table marked-up with UBB and/or HTML tags. That's how I'm doing the brands and names tables, it would be a nightmare without automation.

[uncle bud]

Chris, thanks for filling in the blanks. Good point about the other tracks. Forgot about those. I'll make the additions and we can debate the Gus Cannon tracks with frankie.

Frank, my typing was limited to letters for positions mostly. I copied (cut/paste) the 5-disc tracklist from Amazon. Much easier and quicker! Otherwise like you I may never have got around to it. I print it out, play the discs while making dinner and jot down the keys as the song comes up. Do that over a week or so and you've got your list.

Rivers, how do I get Excel to spit out UBB or html tags? I've got the list in Excel but am clueless as to your nifty-sounding solution.

andrew

[banjochris]

I know the absolute pitch is F, but Poor Boy sounds more like he's playing in G and tuned low.  The IV chord especially sounds more like a C than it does a B-flat to me.  I'll go back and listen later on something other than my laptop... same thing could apply to Madison Street Rag (from memory, I thought that one was in C), but I don't have access to that one right now.

The reasoning for Poor Boy being in F is that the bass runs fit naturally into F position and the bass notes on the V chord sound like a C chord to me (he plays the third in the bass above the root). Madison Street's definitely in F on the banjo, not C, although it's played out of standard C tuning, gCGBD, and the bass runs on that fit into F as well.
Chris

[Rivers]

Andrew, I'll start a topic in tips & announcements and walk you through it.

[frankie]

The reasoning for Poor Boy being in F is that the bass runs fit naturally into F position and the bass notes on the V chord sound like a C chord to me (he plays the third in the bass above the root). Madison Street's definitely in F on the banjo, not C, although it's played out of standard C tuning, gCGBD, and the bass runs on that fit into F as well.

I agree that the bass runs over the I naturally fall into F position, but they're also totally accessible in G position as well.  When he plays the IV chord, the third is voiced above the tonic - tricky with a B-flat chord, but dead simple with a C chord.  When playing the V chord, the third is consistently voiced below the root - played on the 6th string - a D7 with F-sharp in the bass.

I'm sure you're right about Madison Rag - but it'll give m an excuse to go listen to it again, anyway.

[banjochris]

Frankie, going back on "Poor Boy" I think you're right. I hadn't heard the F-sharp in the bass, and I'm pretty sure I do hear it now. It also makes sense with the banjo; although it's tuned low, "Poor Boy" is in G and I sort of doubt Blake wouldn't have gotten in tune with Cannon right from the start.

Madison Street is one of my favorite all time banjo tunes; I wish I could play it like Cannon does. He does some right hand rolls that are very much his own.
Chris

[frankie]

Madison Street is one of my favorite all time banjo tunes; I wish I could play it like Cannon does. He does some right hand rolls that are very much his own.

That is a great tune, and definitely in F as you pointed out - the 5th string (tuned to G) gives the banjo in key a jazzy kind of sound, especially over the I and IV chords.  Gus is certainly underrated as a banjo player and it's really unfortunate.  Not to take anything away from Dock Boggs, but he tends to get all the credit as a "blues banjo" player, even though much of what people call blues in his repertoire might be more accurately described as a type of ballad - Danville Girl, Country Blues, Pretty Polly...   his "bluesiest" stuff is done in G and C tuning (Down South Blues, Mixed Blues, Sugar Blues), not necessarily in his "modal" D tunings.  It's Gus Cannon's "Jonestown" that actually fits the description of "country blues banjo" best - it's just as loopy and varied as anything a country blues guitarist might have produced in the same time period.

Back to Blind Blake - the guitar accompaniment to "Poor Boy" has always been a favorite of mine - it's so perfectly executed.  I'm doubly impressed that Blake was enough of a team player to not overshadow anything that Gus was doing on that tune...  it really is a great example of old-time accompaniment.

My favorite moment in Madison Rag is where Gus briefly changes the key to C in the middle section ("Here come the policeman...") - and Blake, uh, doesn't....     OK, fellas!  That's a take!