Topic: Britain's Other Music Hall: The Story of the Blackface Minstrels

[Alexei McDonald]

Interesting programme about an earlier wave of black influence on popular music with some recreations of 19th century performances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00nq9yt

[blueshome]

The BBC had its "Black and White Minstrel Show" on air from the early 60's until as late as 1979 with artists in black-face despite protests from more enlightened quarters which eventually forced it off.
I could never understand how this could be going on in a so-called civilised country, but it drew large audiences. Still little has changed under the surface in terms of racist attitudes over here, despite a lot of window dressing to cover up.

[Parlor Picker]

My mother was a fan of the "Black and White Minstrel Show" as it was the standard Saturday evening variety show they had on TV at that time.  I don't think she had any racist attitudes, but regarded the blacked-up faces as just some kind of mask or costume accessory.

Of course, political correctness goes through changes. At that time it was regarded as offensive to say "black" about the colour of somebody's skin - you had to use "coloured" or the anthropologically correct "negro".

I think I have heard somewhere that black entertainers used to put on the "black face" make-up as well.

[Alexei McDonald]

The programme covers all of these issues (there's a remarkable amount in it considering it's only half an hour long), but Tony Etoria is more interested in looking at the profound influence of minstrelsy upon the development of popular music and dance than indulging in hadwringing about how awfully racist the British can be.

[Richard]

I suppose I have seen the shows, or more accurately bits of them when they were first aired and as PP correctly say's they were just part of Saturday night tv entertainment. Bad taste they may have been, but they weren't regarded as racist and were accepted by the tv fodder British audiences just as Al Jolson was accepted in his time.

The only thing in their favour was that the early B&W (no pun) shows had a lot of good banjo stuff in them! Which of course brings back the Big Ben Banjo Band... eh PP?

As for handwringing I think that can be put down to the pc obession that this clapped out government has forced on us for the last decade.

[blueshome]

I'm sorry, but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period and which to a large extent continues today.

I don't think it is possible to view the "artistic' influence of minstrelsy in isolation and to wish to categorise a discussion of racism  as "handwringing" or unnecessarily "pc" is to ignore at a fundamental level how insulting and upsetting this programme was to the black population of Britain who were (and still are) exposed to minstrel parodies amongst other humiliations.

[Stuart]

It was an interesting program. Thanks for the link.

Its been mentioned several times before--Black Like You is a contemporary overview:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Like-You-Blackface-Whiteface/dp/B001G8WJPE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257996487&sr=1-2

There have been a couple of recent books about Bert Williams that contain some insights:

http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Bert-Williams-Broadway-Americas/dp/0465024793/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257996910&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Darky-Black-Black-Minstrelsy/dp/082233643X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

And Harry Connick Jr.'s recent experience and reaction in Australia is all over the web. For example:

http://racerelations.about.com/b/2009/10/09/harry-connick-jr-tackles-blackface-in-australia.htm

[Alexei McDonald]

I don't think it is possible to view the "artistic' influence of minstrelsy in isolation

Well, that's fairly obvious, nor does the programme do that.

and to wish to categorise a discussion of racism  as "handwringing" or unnecessarily "pc" is to ignore at a fundamental level how insulting and upsetting this programme was to the black population of Britain who were (and still are) exposed to minstrel parodies amongst other humiliations.

I don't follow that one at all.   Remember, this is a programme in which a black British musician is exploring the influence of Black American music in the 19th century.   I suspect that he's very well aware of the power that racism still has in Britain, as are the people he talks to.

And, no, dismissing your discussion of racism as "handwringing" isn't ignoring how insulting and upsetting "The Black and White Minstrels" show might have been when it was on TV back in the day.   It's dismissing it because it pretty much be taken as read and doesn't give us any insight into the 19th century minstrel show or its massive cultural influence, the basic aim of Tony Etoria in the programme.   Which is not to say that a programme about racism and TB&WMS wouldn't be interesting of itself, of course, and there was, indeed, an interview on the radio with Lenny Henry a few weeks ago in which he talked about his time performing with the show in the 1970s which went much more in this direction.

And, remember, the programme isn't attempting for one minute to study these cultural influences in isolation from the racist milieu in which the minstrel show was set.   It covers all these points while also giving the listener a good impression of what these shows were actually like, and allowing them to make their own judgement about the minstrel shows, rather than just haranguing listeners and telling them how ghastly it all was.   If you just want more haranguing, perhaps this programme isn't for you.

[edit] Apologies, that came out sounding harsher than I had really intended.   All I mean is if you feel there's nothing more that can be said about minstrelsy than that it was a racist form of entertainment, then you should probably ignore this whole thread.

[dj]

...but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period...

Interesting comment on the racist milieu in Britain.  No doubt it's true, but on the other hand, African Americans who visited Britain through the mid-1960s tended to find it refreshingly free of overt racism compared to the U.S.

It's also worth remembering that one person's insulting parody -whether blackface, men dressing as women, performing as an Italian gangster, or what have you - is another person's show business convention, performed with little or no thought and less malice. 

In my late middle age, I feel increasingly that, just as performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience, the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.

[GhostRider]

the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.

How true, dj. Well said, but most often ignored.

Alex

[Richard]

I'm sorry, but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period and which to a large extent continues today.

What racist milieu are you referring to? I don't really agree agree with that, the dreadful parody et al accepted. The millions who watched this stuff every week (my mother included!) were not racist. I think the point is more that whereas the US certainly did have racial problems, over here it was more a case of England for the English regardless of race or colour.

[blueshome]

I've no real issues with the programme itself, I found it informative and helpful in its intent. I am well aware of the intention of the programme butI raised the issue of the BWMS as information to those who may not have been aware of this and how late it continued.

dj: At the same time in the late 50's & early 60's as African American performers found a welcome in the UK you could walk down many streets and see boarding houses and rental agents with signs such as "no blacks", "no Irish"

Richard: I can't speak for your parents, but I have no doubts that my own middle class folks and their acquaintances and others of their generation were/are racist and that the majority of the of the people I've worked with at a "shop floor" level up to a couple of years ago were the same.

As to the comments on intent, I find these very naive, if it's offensive then it's offensive whether the performer means harm or not. I do feel that saying nothing merely indicates acceptance, too many of us have said nothing in the past which is how the poison of racism continues to exist.

"...they came.....and I said nothing..."

I make no apology for politicising this topic, we should not take for granted that racism is abhorrent to everyone, I have met many people around the blues scene in the UK who quite openly make racist comments in private. I will however make this my last word in this vain on this thread. There is still a useful discussion to be had about the programme's content and it's relationship to modern entertainment.

[eagle rockin daddy]

In my late middle age, I feel increasingly that, just as performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience, the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.

With all due respect, this is just nonsense.  Ignorance does not excuse prejudice, racism, hatefulness.  Ignorance causes these things.  According to this idea, I could use any offensive word, gesture, song etc, and as long as there was no ill-intent, the problem is with the victim?  Using swastika's is ok without ill-intent?  Using the 'n' word, or burning crosses is ok without ill-intent?  I agree 110% with Richard, and I think it is probably time to close this thread.

Mike

[dj]

According to this idea, I could use any offensive word, gesture, song etc, and as long as there was no ill-intent, the problem is with the victim?

Mike, remember the first half of the sentence you quoted: "...performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience...". 

My point is, just as we should seek to avoid insulting others, we should also avoid being quick to take insult.     

[eagle rockin daddy]

dj,

I guess we'll just agree to disagree here.  It seems that what I call taking a stand against prejudice, hatefulness, and bigotry, you call taking insult.  I am not personally insulted by any of this, being a white american of european descent, but I find it profoundly wrong, and I believe it is important to call this what it really is.

Mike