WeenieCampbell.com
The Unwound Third => Other Musical Interests => Topic started by: Alexei McDonald on November 10, 2009, 02:11:31 PM
-
Interesting programme about an earlier wave of black influence on popular music with some recreations of 19th century performances.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00nq9yt
-
The BBC had its "Black and White Minstrel Show" on air from the early 60's until as late as 1979 with artists in black-face despite protests from more enlightened quarters which eventually forced it off.
I could never understand how this could be going on in a so-called civilised country, but it drew large audiences. Still little has changed under the surface in terms of racist attitudes over here, despite a lot of window dressing to cover up.
-
My mother was a fan of the "Black and White Minstrel Show" as it was the standard Saturday evening variety show they had on TV at that time. I don't think she had any racist attitudes, but regarded the blacked-up faces as just some kind of mask or costume accessory.
Of course, political correctness goes through changes. At that time it was regarded as offensive to say "black" about the colour of somebody's skin - you had to use "coloured" or the anthropologically correct "negro".
I think I have heard somewhere that black entertainers used to put on the "black face" make-up as well.
-
The programme covers all of these issues (there's a remarkable amount in it considering it's only half an hour long), but Tony Etoria is more interested in looking at the profound influence of minstrelsy upon the development of popular music and dance than indulging in hadwringing about how awfully racist the British can be.
-
I suppose I have seen the shows, or more accurately bits of them when they were first aired and as PP correctly say's they were just part of Saturday night tv entertainment. Bad taste they may have been, but they weren't regarded as racist and were accepted by the tv fodder British audiences just as Al Jolson was accepted in his time.
The only thing in their favour was that the early B&W (no pun) shows had a lot of good banjo stuff in them! Which of course brings back the Big Ben Banjo Band... eh PP?
As for handwringing I think that can be put down to the pc obession that this clapped out government has forced on us for the last decade.
-
I'm sorry, but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period and which to a large extent continues today.
I don't think it is possible to view the "artistic' influence of minstrelsy in isolation and to wish to categorise a discussion of racism as "handwringing" or unnecessarily "pc" is to ignore at a fundamental level how insulting and upsetting this programme was to the black population of Britain who were (and still are) exposed to minstrel parodies amongst other humiliations.
-
It was an interesting program. Thanks for the link.
Its been mentioned several times before--Black Like You is a contemporary overview:
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Like-You-Blackface-Whiteface/dp/B001G8WJPE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257996487&sr=1-2
There have been a couple of recent books about Bert Williams that contain some insights:
http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Bert-Williams-Broadway-Americas/dp/0465024793/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257996910&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Darky-Black-Black-Minstrelsy/dp/082233643X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0
And Harry Connick Jr.'s recent experience and reaction in Australia is all over the web. For example:
http://racerelations.about.com/b/2009/10/09/harry-connick-jr-tackles-blackface-in-australia.htm
-
I don't think it is possible to view the "artistic' influence of minstrelsy in isolation
Well, that's fairly obvious, nor does the programme do that.
and to wish to categorise a discussion of racism as "handwringing" or unnecessarily "pc" is to ignore at a fundamental level how insulting and upsetting this programme was to the black population of Britain who were (and still are) exposed to minstrel parodies amongst other humiliations.
I don't follow that one at all. Remember, this is a programme in which a black British musician is exploring the influence of Black American music in the 19th century. I suspect that he's very well aware of the power that racism still has in Britain, as are the people he talks to.
And, no, dismissing your discussion of racism as "handwringing" isn't ignoring how insulting and upsetting "The Black and White Minstrels" show might have been when it was on TV back in the day. It's dismissing it because it pretty much be taken as read and doesn't give us any insight into the 19th century minstrel show or its massive cultural influence, the basic aim of Tony Etoria in the programme. Which is not to say that a programme about racism and TB&WMS wouldn't be interesting of itself, of course, and there was, indeed, an interview on the radio with Lenny Henry a few weeks ago in which he talked about his time performing with the show in the 1970s which went much more in this direction.
And, remember, the programme isn't attempting for one minute to study these cultural influences in isolation from the racist milieu in which the minstrel show was set. It covers all these points while also giving the listener a good impression of what these shows were actually like, and allowing them to make their own judgement about the minstrel shows, rather than just haranguing listeners and telling them how ghastly it all was. If you just want more haranguing, perhaps this programme isn't for you.
[edit] Apologies, that came out sounding harsher than I had really intended. All I mean is if you feel there's nothing more that can be said about minstrelsy than that it was a racist form of entertainment, then you should probably ignore this whole thread.
-
...but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period...
Interesting comment on the racist milieu in Britain. No doubt it's true, but on the other hand, African Americans who visited Britain through the mid-1960s tended to find it refreshingly free of overt racism compared to the U.S.
It's also worth remembering that one person's insulting parody -whether blackface, men dressing as women, performing as an Italian gangster, or what have you - is another person's show business convention, performed with little or no thought and less malice.
In my late middle age, I feel increasingly that, just as performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience, the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.
-
the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.
How true, dj. Well said, but most often ignored.
Alex
-
I'm sorry, but these shows on the BBC were an insulting parody and I don't believe they could have existed without the racist milieu present in Britain at that period and which to a large extent continues today.
What racist milieu are you referring to? I don't really agree agree with that, the dreadful parody et al accepted. The millions who watched this stuff every week (my mother included!) were not racist. I think the point is more that whereas the US certainly did have racial problems, over here it was more a case of England for the English regardless of race or colour.
-
I've no real issues with the programme itself, I found it informative and helpful in its intent. I am well aware of the intention of the programme butI raised the issue of the BWMS as information to those who may not have been aware of this and how late it continued.
dj: At the same time in the late 50's & early 60's as African American performers found a welcome in the UK you could walk down many streets and see boarding houses and rental agents with signs such as "no blacks", "no Irish"
Richard: I can't speak for your parents, but I have no doubts that my own middle class folks and their acquaintances and others of their generation were/are racist and that the majority of the of the people I've worked with at a "shop floor" level up to a couple of years ago were the same.
As to the comments on intent, I find these very naive, if it's offensive then it's offensive whether the performer means harm or not. I do feel that saying nothing merely indicates acceptance, too many of us have said nothing in the past which is how the poison of racism continues to exist.
"...they came.....and I said nothing..."
I make no apology for politicising this topic, we should not take for granted that racism is abhorrent to everyone, I have met many people around the blues scene in the UK who quite openly make racist comments in private. I will however make this my last word in this vain on this thread. There is still a useful discussion to be had about the programme's content and it's relationship to modern entertainment.
-
In my late middle age, I feel increasingly that, just as performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience, the audience also has a responsibility not to cry racism, misogyny, or anything else in the absence of any evidence of ill-intent.
With all due respect, this is just nonsense. Ignorance does not excuse prejudice, racism, hatefulness. Ignorance causes these things. According to this idea, I could use any offensive word, gesture, song etc, and as long as there was no ill-intent, the problem is with the victim? Using swastika's is ok without ill-intent? Using the 'n' word, or burning crosses is ok without ill-intent? I agree 110% with Richard, and I think it is probably time to close this thread.
Mike
-
According to this idea, I could use any offensive word, gesture, song etc, and as long as there was no ill-intent, the problem is with the victim?
Mike, remember the first half of the sentence you quoted: "...performers should be sensitive towards unintentionally insulting part of their audience...".
My point is, just as we should seek to avoid insulting others, we should also avoid being quick to take insult.
-
dj,
I guess we'll just agree to disagree here. It seems that what I call taking a stand against prejudice, hatefulness, and bigotry, you call taking insult. I am not personally insulted by any of this, being a white american of european descent, but I find it profoundly wrong, and I believe it is important to call this what it really is.
Mike
-
I think that folk are at crossed purposes to an extent here- and that views which actually aren't very far apart are being polarised by the discussion being conducted on in writing rather than in person... The internet does that to discussions sometimes.
Both points are equally valid- and not, as far as I can see, in any real conflict.
No one suggests that we should turn a blind eye and put up with offensive ignorance or prejudice.
Equally, it is not unfair to say that increasingly in western society, there is a mindset whereby many people actively look for things to be offended about that haven't stemmed from ignorance or mal-intent.
Given our interests and passions, I suspect that the vast majority of weenies would have very similar ideas about where the line between those two things is properly drawn.
-
Well said, Slim!
By the way, I loved the jokes in the BBC program. Years ago, when I was in college, I did a project where I indexed all the newspapers from Poughkeepsie, NY during the years of the American Civil War (1861-1865). Those jokes were relatively new and considered hilarious back then. I remember most of the ones used in the program being cited as jokes making the rounds of the city at the time.
Oddly enough, I don't remember very many mentions of minstrel shows. But that could just be because I wasn't paying proper attention.
-
Context! Context is always the responsibility of the artist or presenter of historical material. To think otherwise is callous and uninformed. Unless one is addressing a KKK meeting, one can not know how each audience member will respond to material depicting racially demeaning caricature. Any audience may be made up of racists (or mere xenophobes), PCs and, as well, naives. Do we demand that all children viewing such material be responsible for ascertaining that the artist had no ill intent and therefore that the comic depiction of an ignorant black man is something to be discounted and not believed as true? The artist who claims, after the controversy has arisen, individuals inflamed or insulted, or worse, negatively influenced, that they meant no harm, is irresponsible and/or ignorant.
A little context for our foreign brothers: These caricatures which we see depicted in minstrel shows and the like are not merely extrapolations of funny incidents caused by a few poor, ignorant black people. They are a depiction of a mode of behavior which was forced onto blacks whenever in the presence of whites. Perfectly intelligent people, whether formally educated or not, but fully capable of adult conversation and decision making, were made to behave like ignorant children in the presence of any white person. No black ever looked a white man in the eye, or was ever seen looking in the direction of a white woman, without fear of violent reprisal. All blacks males were referred to as "boy" and referred to whites as "boss" or "captain" or such like. Blacks took on an entirely different character when around whites, and the more demeaning and stupid they acted (i.e. at least more ignorant than the whites), the less likely they were to suffer any physical injury. This state of affairs persisted in many parts of the US well into the '50s and '60s, and is still a mode of racial relations in some parts of the country.
Whenever a black person sees a depiction of these caricatures which were adapted in fear of their lives, is it any wonder that they might feel affronted, sitting in an audience of white people laughing at these performances, yes, even when some of their own are creating the caricatures as well? The psychological strain on those blacks who did so, for financial gain, was severe.
To think that a performer can depict any racially demeaning behavior, with no historical or social context, and expect that it is up to the audience members to understand that it is done with no ill intent is, well, hopelessly ignorant and shows a great lack of understanding of the performing process.
It does seem that the show Alexie originally referenced did place the material in a proper context.
Wax
-
"
To think that a performer can depict any racially demeaning behavior, with no historical or social context, and expect that it is up to the audience members to understand that it is done with no ill intent is, well, hopelessly ignorant and shows a great lack of understanding of the performing process."
I dont think anyone said otherwise. Context is indeed crucial.
-
Equally, it is not unfair to say that increasingly in western society, there is a mindset whereby many people actively look for things to be offended about that haven't stemmed from ignorance or mal-intent.
A very good point and in some way reiterates my argument that during the period in which these shows were broadcast, they were viewed by the majority as entertainment - I would also suspect that the viewing age was probably middle aged (whatever that may be) comprised of latent grannies with a pipe smoking spose!
I would also venture that the trials and tribulations of being black in US at that time as wax points out, were lost on the majority of people in England and in particular the audience of these shows.
I was just looking through todays other posts and saw this link - it just shows there is no escape from it!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/us/28rainey.html?_r=1
-
And, remember, the programme isn't attempting for one minute to study these cultural influences in isolation from the racist milieu in which the minstrel show was set. It covers all these points while also giving the listener a good impression of what these shows were actually like
Does anyone know where to find and watch episodes of this show? I for one would risk a lot of ire-raising from people who like to be offended on behalf of other people to actually get a chance to see what this all looked like. As those who follow my other posts are aware, I am in the midst of intensive reading/research into the ragtime era, the era of the big traveling tented shows, which featured black performers in blackface. In the book Ragged But Right I am getting lists of songs and press reviews of shows, but I would like to see some of this material actually staged and played.
By the way, director Spike Lee did an excellent film that touched on these issues and how this history affects the black community. It is titled Bamboozled, and I highly recommend it. It is a frank discussion of the black role and responsibility in propgating minstrelsy and derogatory stereotypes, and anybody who wants to participate in these types of discussions should watch it at least once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled)
Michelle Shocked wanted to appear in blackface on the cover of her Arkansas Traveler album, but the label got her dressed in a hillbilly schtick attire instead (though she did the blackface shoot anyway and had that photo on the inside cover). She talkins in the liner notes about facing the past, embracing the past instead of cowering in fear, etc., and she does a great duet on the album with Taj Mahal that explores these themes.
It's funny - I raised a lot of issues about race in my "What Is It About The Blues?" thread, and I got a little ticked off when folks said basically to let it alone and appreciate the music. It seems that I am now on the other side of the coin - I would like to research and interact with the music and cultural artifacts of this era (playbills, sheet music covers and the many curios of black Americana) without being harangued, labeled, castigated or otherwise upbraided for my interest or curiosity in the field.
-
I would like to see some of this material actually staged and played.
I think the closest you're going to get is "Jim Jackson's Affinity" on Document CD 5216 - Too Late, Too Late, Volume 2. It's a tent show/vaudeville performance, abbreviated to fit on a cylinder. It's got a musical intro by a brass band, comedy sketch, and singing to brass band accompaniment. Doubtless if you'd seen in live c. 1908 there would have been dancing as well, as the skit takes place at a dance.
-
Coincidentally, I just run to some footages by Folkstream on another forum. There seems to be some very interesting film clips on that site. You might be interested in "Free Show Tonight" , which "presents a nostalgic tribute to the American medicine shows of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Shows a re-creation of a typical medicine show by veteran performers, as well as archival stills and film footage."
http://www.folkstreams.net/film,68
I haven't had the time to see the film myself.
Cheers
Pan
-
Perfect.
Thanks to Pan and DJ for the leads.
-
DG:
If you get a chance, read the recent books on Bert Williams:
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Darky-Black-Black-Minstrelsy/dp/082233643X
http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Bert-Williams-Broadway-Americas/dp/0465018114/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284683372&sr=1-1
and there's
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Like-You-Blackface-Whiteface/dp/B000VYT20E/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284683435&sr=1-1
I remember an exchange in "Bamboozled" which went something like: "Why are you laughing?" "Because it's funny."
A profound and complex piece of dialogue if there ever was one.
-
Does anyone know where to find and watch episodes of this show?
They were dreadful and designed to appeal to British grannies\happy familes et all all sat round the tv on Saturday night.. eekkkk! So don't bother! Just imagine a 1970s British variety show full of song and dance numbers with wonderful frocks and the men in, how can I say... Roberston's Jam costumes mit blackface (I can't remember if they had the wigs... no, they wore hats instead) all leaping about about and singing perfectly - could have been performed just as well without the makeup! Not a hint or ever intended hint of rasicm, the minstrel bit was purely a setting\vehicle for the songs, but as the shows went on seemingly in perpituity they gradually ran out "coloured" material and just included any old song. Does that help?
The folkstreams thing that Pan mentions is very good.
-
Sorry, but is there some confusion going on here (seems like this thread has a bit of that throughout)? Is DanceGypsy asking whether one can see episodes of the British TV show The Black and White Minstrel Show which ran from 1958 to -78, or the recreations of 19th performances referred to in Alexei's first post about the BBC radio documentary on black minstrelsy? I thought he was referring to the latter.
I missed this thread the first time out I guess, and now realize I have led a clearly sheltered life. I did not know of the existence of the Black and White Minstrel Show, the BBC TV show. Yesterday I watched several hair-raising (what's left of it) excerpts on YouTube. I won't bother to embed them here, you can search on the title. I'd say it's comparable to Springtime for Hitler coming to life and running for 20 years. Like the Lawrence Welk Show in blackface, week in week out. It is astonishing. And I have to completely disagree and say it is positively and anachronistically surreal in its racism. I think one can distinguish between the viewers and performers not being hate-spewing Jim Crow-era racists and the fact that the entire presentation is still in fact racist. Were it to air today, it would be an international embarrassment, not because governments and individuals have forced political correctness on us, but because it's freaking awful.
According to this BBC archive website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/written.shtml?chapter=10), one high-level pencil pusher at the Beeb had this to say about complaints from within the BBC itself. "Thank you for your memo. Much could be and has been said about this. The best advice that could be given to coloured people by their friends would be, on this issue we can see your point but, in your own best interests, for heaven's sake shut up." This seems less than innocent to me.
As for the actual 19th century minstrel stuff, let us know if you find anything else, DanceGypsy. It's not minstrel, rather different, but if you haven't seen Hallelujah!, made in 1929, you might be interested in that. For ragtime era and mostly early 1900s to 1920s information, I'll just add that while Abbott and Seroff are certainly the go-to authors, I have also found Jasen and Jones' Spreading Rhythm Around - Black Popular Songwriters 1880-1930, a book I've mentioned elsewhere, to be an informative read.
-
Mmm, yes, I have to agree there. When I was a kid, and the Minstrels show was still running, I always loathed it. Not because of any nascent awareness of the racism inherent in the form, but because it was mind-numbingly tedious.
-
Ditto. It was something your parents watched. Extremely grim.
-
Pan, thanks for the link to Free Show Tonight. It's a wonderful movie. I wish I'd been there at the actual performance.
Anyone who hasn't watched this should be sure to check it out.
-
Pan, thanks for the link to Free Show Tonight. It's a wonderful movie. I wish I'd been there at the actual performance.
Anyone who hasn't watched this should be sure to check it out.
dj, you're most welcome! I really liked it too.
Cheers
Pan
Edited to add: I know it's been discussed before, but in case you have missed it, there are other gems among the Folkstream films. Check it out!
-
One more recommendation for Free Show Tonight, if I may:
I watched the movie on Thursday and Friday, and parts of it again today. I have taken no other medications in the meantime. And today I'm tapeworm free! ;D
I wonder what was in those bottles they were selling...
-
My wife and I watched "Free Show Tonight" a couple nights back, this after I watched the majority of it at work the day before. I cannot recommend this film highly enough. Hammie Nixon is one of the old medicine show musicians they found, and he blows jug and sings a number or two and generally cuts up whenever the camera is on him. Guitar Slim plays some fine piano, and the white "Greasy" Medlin has got the country blues all through his bones. "Free Show Tonight" was filmed in 1982 and released in '83, and Greasy Medlin died before the film came out.
-
And then there is "Born for Hard Luck", the film bio of harmonica player par excellence Peg Leg Sam, one-time med show performer and all around character.
Peter B.