Topic: what the oldins might have done

[cakewalk]

Hi Everyone

Uncle Bud made a recent comment on a Reso posting recently that got me thinking about some things. He said Blind Boy Fuller "barely played slide (one tune out of a hundred)".

I know that I maybe already kinda taking my Uncle out of context, as he was making this statement as part of a refutation of the notion that resos were meant to be played slide on, but this comment can't be taken literally.

The one song I know of BFF in which he featured a bottleneck was Homesick Lonesome Blues. His intonation and facility with slide on that piece demonstrates that he indeed did play slide well. One could further imagine that without being able to nintendo,  gameboy, reality tv or google the hours away, a bottleneck probably provided a nice diversion for a poor, blind guitar picker back then.

If this is so, why does only one recording of his slide playing exist?
Why did some play with, without bottleneck or both?

One interesting answer to these questions is provided by Steve Calt. He has written liner notes for Yazoo bottleneck recordings and contributed an introduction to Woddy Mann's Bottleneck Guitar book. I will paraphrase badly here, but he says there was no apparent lure,or mystique (as there is today) for the bottleneck amongst players, or in the recording industry at that time. Indeed he points out that if you were just starting out that it would have taken less time to be able to produce satisfying sounds with a bottleneck on an opentuned guitar than fretting it in standard tuning. Therefore bottleneck playing might have been viewed as a beginner's stage trick.
 
Further evidence of this is provided by Stephen Grossman who reports that when he asked Gary Davis about bottleneck playing he derisively referred to it as "cheatin". Then he proceeded to play slide quite proficiently on an opentuned guitar with a cigartube.

I have been so impressd with the knowledge and level of edication to country blues on this site. I thought I might throw these musings out
to see if anyone had other thoughts about how the oldins might have viewed  bottleneck playing vs fretting their instuments in a conventional way.

Brian

[GhostRider]

Hi:

Some thoughts.

In the Carolinas/Piedmont area, melodic blues/ragtime influenced material was king. Whereas melodic slide playing is certianly possible (Tampa Red), it's much easier to achieve with fingers.

The Gary Davis bit you quoted I have seen as well. He seemed to intimate (and I to some degree agree) that BBF early development as a guitarist was stunted by his early adoption of the bottleneck; "he needed some of my trainin".

In the parts of the Delta where bottlneck playing was popular, in general, melody was to some degree sacrificed for rythum (sp). BBF musical milieu was melodic, and with Rev. Gary around, the pressure away from bottleneck would have been v. strong.

I've always wondered why a melodic slide player like Tampa Red generated almost no imitators whereas Son House had zillions. Degree of difficulty?

Who knows,
Alex

[Muddyroads]

I've always wondered why a melodic slide player like Tampa Red generated almost no imitators whereas Son House had zillions. Degree of difficulty?

Alex,

Could it be the level of emotional intensity?  Tampa hits a moderate level but House blows the lid at times.  His playing is powerful in a way that Muddy Waters' playing was.  Not a model of melodic eloquence, but a counterpoint to an emotional cry of pain.  It is the exorcising of this pain that is point of the blues.  At times, emotions speak louder  than a well executed melody.

Just my 2 cents,

Muddy

[GhostRider]

Muddy:

Your point is well taken, and I'm sure that modern audiences in general feel this way. But 75 years ago, if you wanted to be sucessful, in terms of selling records, why imitate Son House who sold 100 as opposed to Tampa Red who sold 100,000.

Back in the day, people danced and partied to these recordings. Only modern audiences, I think, ponder the deep inner meanings, as I suppose one day they'll be pondering the deep inner meanings of 50 Cent.

Alex

[waxwing]

Yeah, I would agree with Alex, and if you check my list of BBF's keys, you'll see that he did a handfull of slide numbers (all but one of the songs in Vastapol). But, As alex intimated, if the Rev is to be fully believed, BBF was originally only a slide player and the Rev's influence, and perhaps others, led him to develop what has to be seen as his own style of fretting a resonator

But many others used resonators for non-slide playing, and many slide players used wood flat tops as well. And I agree that there seems to be much more of an emphasis on slide playing today then back then. Personally, I find it hard to listen to an entire set of solo slide playing as Spanish and Vastapol have a pretty similar sound which, taken in the context of how many modern players seem to emulate only a handful of the prewar slide players, seems pretty limiting. Whereas the way the fretboard lays out so differently under various keys in Standard, with Spanish and Vastapol to draw on as well, makes for a far more varied repertoir from fretting, both melodically and emotionally. I mean, when was the last time you heard an average modern slide player do a rag? (Bob Brozman and Mike Dowling as exceptions) I think many of the prewar players felt the same way. The slide is a little limiting. Maybe a good way to get into playing well enough to perform, but when one starts realizing the greater range available to fretting, I think many get drawn to it

I'm not dissing slide players, and with the full range of lap and steel and dobro players, I think there is a great variety of style and genre available, especially in group contexts. But for the solo prewar blues player, I really do think you can say more by fretting, or combining the two styles in your repertoir, than by playing only slide.

This is my highly opinionated 2 cents, of course.

All for now.
John C.

[blueshome]

Re: the influence of slide players. I think Pyrochlore is wrong in terms of relative influences, but dead right about popularity with the intended audience.

If it weren't for Lomax we would probably never have heard of Son house;  yes he did influence Muddy and RJ, but by personal contact only.

Tampa had a number of direct imitators - Tampa Kid, Bumble Bee Slim, BB Fuller(!), Ace of Spades. In addition he was an admitted influence on Robert Nighthawk, Earl Hooker, Muddy, Elmore James.

As to listening to a full set of slide numbers - lord preserve us from this (with the exeception of Hound Dog Taylor!!!)- I don't inflict it on my audiences.

[cakewalk]

Hey I am enjoying everyone's comments here and I have learned some cool things. I didn't know BBF had numerous slide pieces, I will have to check that out.

I have heard players who remind me of Tampa Red: Tampa Kid and Bumble Bee Slim and I have heard some slide playing backing old female singers whose liner notes didn't say who was playing that sounded like a Tampa influence (could have been Tampa himself throwing in a few double stop slides to throw us all off).

However, I think we could differentiate between infuences and imitators. I have read people citing Tampa R as an influence for Nighthawk, Muddy, Elmore but I don't hear imitation in their playing.
One big difference is that, to my ear, Tampa Red employed very little vibrato. Indeed, I have difficulty imitating Tampa Red because I habitually find and embelish notes with a shake. (a weakness?)
Those other fellows mentioned did the same thing, and probably couldn't play an entire number with the slide without vibrato waver.

As far as listening to slide all night, I can!! For me it gets boring if it is only one style. However, imagine a set of a well played Barbeque Bob,Tampa, Oscar Woods, Son House, BLind Willie McTell. I defy you guys to leave your seats!

Earl Hooker was another breed. He took slide playing to another level because he played in any tuning including standard. He played jazz, rock, blues and employed the entire fretboard. He played with the wahwah as a blues instrument back when no one did that. I wish he had made more records...

Brian

[Rivers]

Hey there cakewalk,

Interesting you should mention Tampa Red's vibrato technique. I got quite obsessed with that whole topic at one point. My theory is this. Red used so many different types of vibrato, long and slow and short and fast and all points in between, as it fit with what he was doing at the time.

So he doesn't have a distinctive vibrato that you can say "oh yes that's Tampa Red", like you can with 99.9% of players. Which is, I believe, one of the primary reasons he is so distinctive and hard to copy. Not only do you have to nail one vibrato you have to nail several, at the right point in the song. Clearly that's close to impossible and does trademark his sound.

Just my theory, have another listen and see if you agree or disagree.

Rivers.

[cakewalk]

Rivers

I will give some more listening and try and hear his vibrato.
(I have been on such a Tampa Red kick lately that my wife recently
wryly referred to my obsession with "Tampon Red").

I have been learning Denver Blues lately and I find that not only is it hard because I have to leave habitual vibrato out, but in order to get
Tampa's sound I have to begin a slide (either down or up) at an exact point. Most other styles an approximation will do.)

Do you have a song in mind that most clearly outlines vibrato?

Brian

[Rivers]

Well it took me a year to respond to this one but better late than never. Hope you're still around cakewalk.

Check out She Don't Know My Mind, there are two takes on the Bluebird Recordings 1934-36 and the quality is excellent so you can hear very clearly what's going on.

The vibrato is very lush in places and contrasts with the times he finesses it entirely, which is my whole point. With Tampa Red's playing sometimes there's no vibrato at all, sometimes just a touch (just flats it for one quarter note), other times he milks it. The timing, context and touch is unsurpassed.

I believe this aspect of his playing is very considered and controlled. It puts him in a different league to slide players who reflexively tend to vibrate at the same frequency. I guess by the time She Don't Know My Mind was recorded he'd heard himself on records enough to figure out what worked and fed it back into his playing.

[Parlor Picker]

I have been learning Denver Blues lately and I find that not only is it hard because I have to leave habitual vibrato out, but in order to get
Tampa's sound I have to begin a slide (either down or up) at an exact point. Most other styles an approximation will do.)

Brian - you don't "... have to leave habitual vibrato out" - what's wrong with playing the piece in YOUR style?  Play around with it a bit.  There's only limited mileage in doing a note-for-note, slavish copy in Tampa Red's style.

OK, that's my 2 cents' worth - I can talk, as I wouldn't know where to start playing it!

[Rivers]

I'm gonna try and slavishly copy Red's technique on the song I mentioned, just as an excercise. This does of course mean I will need to immediately rush out and procure a National tricone.

[blueshome]

That's the attitude Rivers, go all the way! But not a N-R tricone, they don't sound like the old ones.

Slavishly copying should be seen as an excercise that enables you to learn new vibrato/damping techniques on the way and gives the satisfaction of having mastered a version of the piece, it is not without value. However, I agree totally with P.Picker that you are doing something that's already been done and you might be looking to put something of yourself into the song. Tampa did created Denver Blues over 3 minutes in a studio 75 years ago and probabably never played it just that way again, nor cared if he did. We seem to get fixated on playing the "right" version of a tune as inscribed in wax so many years ago.

Good luck with it, but you should keep convincing yourself you need that tricone, if only to play your own compositions and arrangements.

   Phil

[waxwing]

While others get fixated on playing the wrong version?-G-

I just don't see how mastering the style of a great player, and performing the song in that style means it somehow can't be your own. Every time someone starts talking about developing their playing in the style of one of the greats, people start throwing around the terms "slavish recreation". Just as Tampa Red never played the song the same twice, he did probably play it in his clean, start the slide here, end the slide there, style every time. Why does someone playing the song in that style make it a "slavish recreation". They won't play iy "exactly the same way every time" either. Couldn't you be just as offended by someone who plays what was a sharp Tampa Red boogie in that same old sloppy Delta style that everyone imitates and calls it "their own"? As cakewalk said above, "However, imagine a set of a well played Barbeque Bob,Tampa, Oscar Woods, Son House, BLind Willie McTell." I agree, if played in the original styles, that would be great. If every song was played in that wannabe Son House style that everyone calls "their own" I'd be outa there after two songs.

To me, what makes it "your own" is not the notes you choose or the style you use. What makes it your own is whether you are connected emotionally to what you are performing and whether that comes across to the audience. If you can do that in the style of the original, more power to you, If you want to play everything in a much narrower style or by changing the notes, more power to you. If you have an intellectual/philosophical bent that says only one way (your way) can work, please, don't go around trying to dampen the spirit of those who are reaching for more.

Actually I just get riled up when I see someone start a paragraph with the word "should" and then go on to denegrate a perfectly viable way to thrill an audience. I think people should play music in the way that works for them and encourage others to follow their own course, whatever it may be.

All for now.
John C.

[GhostRider]

Waxy:

I agree with you 110%. Its the overall quality of the performance that matters, not "whether you've made it your own".

Check out this old thread where this was hashed over in some detail (one of my favorite Weenie threads).

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=114&topic=272.0

Alex

[blueshome]

"While others get fixated on playing the wrong version?"

The "wrong" version is the one that satisfies neither the player nor the intended listener, doesn't matter what you or I think.

In the recent posts on this the only "should" has been my light hearted encouragement to Rivers that he should buy a tricone.

I think we are all well aware of performers who reduce everything into either a quasi-Delta or rock-sounding performance and claim that they are adding their own thing to it, or, worse still, taking the music forward. Also we all know those who have not listened and practiced hard enough to break away from unconsciously sounding cliche-ed and having rock phrasing and timing.

There is difference between mastering the style of a player and becoming a slavish imitator (were one capable of that, it would seem to be a waste of talent) - the only way to acquire the vocabulary and syntax of this music is to be able to understand the styles of the players we enjoy and yes, this may include learning songs note for note.

[Rivers]

The key word here is "exercise". I'm the last person to slavishly copy anybody but I know a good trick when I hear it that I would like to incorporate into my playing.

Once you've "mastered" something, what does that really mean? To me it means you can do it without thinking and no matter how laborious the process of getting there it is now part of your palette. Surely that's how we steal learn anything worthwhile from the great masters, either directly or through a teacher.

As soon as you've "mastered" something to the limits of your talent & ability, grasshopper, you are then free to use it, alter it, toss it into whatever context, or not, as you see fit. Native instincts are irrelevant when the brain tells you something else is superior. Unless of course you're reaching for some kind of primitivism, that's a whole other deal.

[we should probably move this topic to the main forum or somewhere, once I figure out how to do it]
[moved, and added a new tag 'interpretation'  ]