Topic: Robert Johnsons's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Michael Cardenas]

it would be highly inconsistent to deny the same for Spanish. Just my 2 cents.

Give the kids a nickel and they take a dime, next they will be wanting to rename DGDGBD the "Violet" tuning. When will the madness end !?!?!

As fairness is concerned if the publishing test-bed for cementing a tuning in vernacular is Sebastopol in 1856 then it is fair to say the publishing angle was repeated with Spanish Fandango in 1866.

[Michael Cardenas]

I have no doubt that Spanish Fandango was so named because the composer was copying or attempting to obtain the feel of a Spanish guitar performance.  But it's also obvious that there were a lot more copies of Worrall's Guitar Tutor and other arrangements of Spanish Fandango, printed and unprinted, floating around the South in the last decades of the 19th century than there were Spaniards (or Central and South American heirs of a Spanish musical tradition).  And it doesn't seem that any Spanish or Latin American songs entered the Southern folk musical tradition (excepting, of course, in southern Texas).

(As an aside, Michael, I do agree that Hawaiian music may have influenced early blues guitar somewhat.  Though again, what's the chicken and what's the egg?  As someone whose great-great-great, great-great, and great-grandfathers stopped at Hawaii on whaling voyages (and whose great-grandfather ate dinner with Queen Liliuokalani on occasion), I can say that there were a lot of African Americans on those ships.)

Spanish or Latin American influence on proto-Blues is a stretch, but Minstrelsy is a whole different bag of chips.....

I can appreciate the common academic explanations and story lines for either tuning, but as each might possibly stretch beyond the immediate scope they're presented in I attempt to look at the associative ethnomusicology. That's why I was curious about the early Blues examples in Sebastopol or proto-Blues for that matter.

I found this:
June 11, 1891: At New Orleans University's annual commencement exercises, one of the musical interludes was "Miss Eliose Bibb, 'Sebastopol', guitar concerto" (Southern Christian Advocate).

Note:  The novelty piece "The Siege of Sebastopol" was played in an open tuning which became widely used in later blues and gospel and still bears the name "Sebastopol". This citation demonstrates that "Sebastopol" tuning was being used by Black guitarists as early as 1891.

? Out of sight: the rise of African American popular music, 1889-1895 By Lynn Abbott, Doug Seroff

There is also the theory that the tuning is relative to Bazouki and from a tonic point of view, this isn't such a weak theory considering Cittern tuning and relation to Bazouki. Worrall is also English. Problem is it's a Turkish instrument and you would be hard-pressed to find it in east or central Ukraine. BUT!!! The Crimea is a port region with vast mediterranean influence. Dig this if you can, the folk (pre-Andreev) tuning for a Balalaika is D-F#-A, so maybe Worrall wasn't going for horns at all. Regardless the guy was pretty hip, ethno fetish and all. It shows beyond a commercial motive the guy had a progressive approach to music even if he was just recasting English shanties.

It is a difficult task to see where the Open D shows up in America within the first half of the 19th century, but if you find Open D minor it's a safe bet they had a major as well. I'm convinced the Open G existed early on as the evidence is universal folkloric element, I mean everyone in the world used that tuning. The Open D probably has a different narrative in America's case. My guess would be it funnels down as an English remnant of Cittern. This theory also squares it with the shanty chorus thievery.

[Michael Cardenas]

Problem is it's a Turkish instrument and you would be hard-pressed to find it in east or central Ukraine.

That came out wrong, it's a Greek instrument to be sure. Early 19th century Turkey is what I meant in relation to Turks or Hungarian influence within the Carpathian region of Ukraine.

[bnemerov]

A corrective to my earlier post---my fingers got ahead of my brain (what's left of it).

Of course Worrall wrote "Sevastopol" and not "Fandango." I've gone back to my files---damn you Weenies for making me!  ---and have found this:

"Spanish Fandango" first appearance in print in The Elements of Guitar Playing (1838). No composer listed and the piece described as using a "peculiar tuning."
Later Henry Worrall issued another version in a manual published in 1860.
Many other arrangements of the piece published through the 19th C. including one by the great African-American concert guitarist, Justin Holland (who had C.F. Martin make his guitars).

So, with this history indicating the popularity of the tune, do we need to bring Hawaiians and Portugese sailors into the story to account for blacks & hillbillies hearing the tune and adopting the "peculiar tuning?"
As Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbott have noted in their books--referenced by Michael C.--
rural folk were exposed to a broad range of music by traveling tent shows, carnivals, etc.

Sorry for misspeaking; still yours for greater clarity,
Bruce Nemerov

[dj]

So, with this history indicating the popularity of the tune, do we need to bring Hawaiians and Portugese sailors into the story to account for blacks & hillbillies hearing the tune and adopting the "peculiar tuning?"

Hi, Bruce.  I should clarify that, for my part, I don't think that Spanish tuning was adopted by blacks and hillbillies due to any Hawaiian influence.  I just think that Hawaiian music was one of the things that was "in the air", enjoying its first bit of mainland popularity, as the blues coalesced, and so may have had some influence.  And, given the number of blacks in ships' crews, I can't but wonder if they had any influence on the development of early Hawaiian guitar styles.  I don't think we'll ever know the answer to either question.  It's just something I think about sometimes.     

[bnemerov]

Right, dj.
I agree with your assessment. My point was that southerners, black & white, had ample opportunity to hear "spanish" and "vastopol" tuned guitars through domestic channels. By the time the Hawaiian craze hit---as a pop music phenomenon---they were probably already tuning their Sears & Montgomery-Ward guitars in open tunings.
I suspect the Hawaiian players gave them some new ideas, though.
Best,
Bruce

[Stuart]

Tuning the guitar so that the intervals match that of common chord shapes is something that, IMHO, could have been done by many different individuals independent of and with no knowledge of one another. It's obvious and simple and not complex or abstract. If one person could think of it, why couldn't more than one person think of it? After all, first position E and A were common knowledge.

This is not to say that the topic and discussion are not interesting. However, trying to discover who was the first person to do this (if in fact there was only one person) and all of the subsequent lines of transmission and/or causal links verges on the impossible. But we can still have fun speculating.

[Michael Cardenas]

"Spanish Fandango" first appearance in print in The Elements of Guitar Playing (1838)

Fandango is a generic term appearing in many early 19th century publications, but regarding Ballard's instructional, this is a methodic/stylistic departure from the cultural impact Worrall would have with a specific tuning. I really do appreciate the academic narrative involved, but I feel the ethnic sinew of the Open G and Spanish influence which shapes the instrument is vital to both history and theory.

Dionisio Aguado, (1784 - 1849)
Aguado wrote several excellent concert pieces, such as the "Fandango" and the "Rondos Brillantes op. 2", but as is so common, the only pieces well-known by Aguado are the simple exercises from the Method for amateurs. Even Segovia played only these simple etudes, and ignored the "real" pieces that Aguado published. You will also find lots of waltzes for amateurs; some of them have simple charm, but these were mass-market publications which are not representative of Aguado's best works.

?A Noteworthy Early American Guitar Treatise: James Ballard?s ?Element? of 1838,? Soundboard 8/4 (1981): 270?76. Danner singles out Ballard for his incorporation of sound European pedagogy and Gura discusses Ballard?s method in some detail, citing Ballard?s introductory notes as well as contemporaneous praise for the book. Gura identifies some of Ballard?s musical sources, including Fernando Sor, Mauro Giuliani, Dionisio Aguado, and Johann Strauss; Gura, C. F. Martin, 24?29.
? The GUITAR in AMERICA Victorian Era to Jazz Age by Jeffrey J. Noonan

This reinforces Spanish influence on American guitar prior to the open G of Worrall's acclaim. Who knows? Maybe the wire-strung ?English guittar? splashed some tuning sensibility here and there, but it wouldn't take long for it's Spanish counterpart to usurp the country and define a system.

[Norfolk Slim]

I say this without any specific knowledge

A slight (but only slight) tangent-

However, I have always wondered about the extent to which spanish guitar music may have had an influence of some description on the development of the blues.  I enjoy and listen to traditional flamenco from time to time and some of the shared ideas simply leap out at me.  The impassioned vocal, sandwiched between bursts of sophisticated rhythm and blazing single note lines is not so very far from what many of the old blues guys were doing.  Of course flamenco originated in the south of Spain, following influence from the "moors" i.e. invaders from (as I understand it) North Africa.  Not so very far (geographically at least) from West Africa where many of the slaving routes commenced. 

I have a vague recollection of Paul Oliver describing slave routes to and from south america to the south of the usa.  Keep meaning to ask him whether he thinks there is any connection, but have never remembered at the same time as catching him on his own!

[Johnm]

I say this without any specific knowledge

In this respect, Slim, you are in keeping with this thread's recent direction.  All of this leaping around and citing of irrelevant sources reminds me of Mark Twain's assessment of Henry James' fiction:  "He chewed more than he bit off."  Conjecture is fine, stated once, if acknowledged as such.  Serial back-pedaling conjecture becomes tedious really quickly.  Your point has been made, Michael Cardenas, and can't be proven in any event.  Why not come up for air and let people think about what you've said and draw their own conclusions?  Consensus on an unknowable point can never be achieved simply by having the last word.
All best,
Johnm

[blueshome]

My head is fried, still they say b@!lsh@t baffles brains!

[Michael Cardenas]

and can't be proven in any event.

Dialogue is invaluable, it's not something music had in the 19th century the way we have means to discuss it now, so I value it as privilege.

I've been reading Jas Obrecht's articles since I was first learning guitar and here's a recent article he put together on this very subject:

http://jasobrecht.blogspot.com/2010/06/blues-origins-spanish-fandango-and.html

However even he admits the task is difficult to trace the banjo's role in relation to these tunings and antebellum references are commonly avoided in favor of routine scholars' approach post 1850. Is it challenging to talk about the Middle Passage or the transfer of American music's intellectual foundation along the Gulf coast back then, you bet it is.

[Stuart]

There's nothing wrong with dialogue, Michael. But naturally, not all dialogue is the same.Thanks for the link to Jas' blog.

History is fascinating, but when one does it, it's important to bear in mind a couple of the definitions of "history"--"history" in the sense of the totality of what really happened and why (which is beyond what we can ever hope to know) and "history" in another sense--a selective recreation of the past in written form. It's important not to confuse the two.

[onewent]

I've been reading with interest, thanks, all, for your contributions.  Especially enjoyed the Jas O. blog report with sound clips of the tunings under discussion.  This is one of the more engaging threads I've ever read on the net ..it way eclipses 'the Robert Johnson tuning' issues.. and it will lead me to a bit more poking around for more info the histories of Vastopol and Spanish tunings..Regards, Tom

[Michael Cardenas]

The published notation of early American music is invaluable no doubt and it provides us with more than just method for playing instruments. It's logical for a musician to favor the textual approach and look into the paper trail for we are trained via sheet in this respect. I try to remind myself there are no dead-ends when it comes to how guitar and/or music developed in the U.S.

I don't want to assume everyone aligns in one mindset, neither do I assume everyone is coming from the same place as Bob Brozman. He understands Open G is the first tuning that people came up with in Africa, Mexico, Cuba, South America, and Hawaii. I'll admit it's wrong to think everyone feels the same. What I do notice is a kind of divide in thought, there are some who trust the textual and they are correct to be skeptical of the ethnic values or folklore. It's just that when you are talking about what is essentially the folk music of America I assume the folklore is an automatic component of the equation. Sometimes when history attempts to represent the music it has to by nature avoid bitterness in favor of presentation and unfortunately crucial segments get left out in the process.