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The words was the hardest thing to get and make 'em stick. Sometimes you'd sit down at night and write two or three songs, but they had the same tune to mostly all. All the blues pretty near sound alike unless you got a rare voice and put turns and trills in it - Thomas A. "Georgia Tom" Dorsey interviewed by Jim O'Neal and Amy van Singel, The Voice Of The Blues

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 244508 times)

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Offline Rivers

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1965 on: November 11, 2018, 09:28:30 PM »
Thanks John, I look forward to working on it again tomorrow. It strikes me J.B. Lenoir's Down In Mississippi belongs in the Blues Forms and Vocal Phrasing thread. It's unlike anything else I know of, in particular the extended turnaround, where it mightily resists going to the V. Having made his point already going to the V would have been superfluous.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1966 on: November 13, 2018, 08:12:24 AM »
You make a good point re the structure of "Down In Mississippi", Rivers.  I don't know another song in the style that shares its form and chord progression.  Actually, there isn't much of a chord progression, it's pretty static harmonically.  I think another distinctive feature of it is that the vocal and accompaniment operate in a true call-and-response fashion, since J B adopted the B. B. King approach of simply not playing while he was singing.  The more you think about it, the more you realize the extent to which it stood apart from blues structural norms.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Rivers

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1967 on: November 13, 2018, 06:26:04 PM »
Yep. The last two vocal lines in each verse probably count as an 8 bar refrain added on to what I count as an 12 bar verse;

Refrain:
"Down in Mississippi where I was born
Down in Mississippi where I come from"

When playing it, rather than just listening to it, my brain wants to complete the last 4 bars with a lyric containing the V:

"Down in Mississippi."

But that vocal isn't there, leaving the lyric unresolved, and four bars of space for the guitar to jam on the I chord. It's unique and brilliant.

Sorry to obsess about this but I've been trying to figure out this song's structure for some time. I finally think I've understood what's going on.

Cheers!

Mark.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 06:45:50 PM by Rivers »

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1968 on: November 18, 2018, 09:05:14 AM »
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler, with thanks to Lightnin' for the recommendation of the tune and Lindy for finding it on youtube.  The song is "Slim's Stomp", as played by John Lee Hooker using the nom de disque, Texas Slim, in 1949.  Here is it:



The questions on "Slim's Stomp" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the tune?
   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is droning on one note and answering it with two descending notes in the bass.  Where, relative to tuning and capo placement, did he fret the two answering notes in the bass?
   * Starting at :39, John Lee Hooker hits a bend and releases it, goes down in pitch for a note, hits a lower note and returns to the second note, repeating this motif several times.  Where did he fret this passage?
   * Starting around 1:49, John Lee Hooker frets a double stop in the treble, returning to it several times and sometimes sliding down from it in pitch.  Where did he fret the two notes in the double stop?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM on Wednesday, November 21.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "Slim's Stomp".
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 06:16:11 AM by Johnm »

Offline Old Man Ned

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1969 on: November 22, 2018, 01:04:11 PM »
In an attempt to get the ball rolling on John Lee Hooker's 'Slim's Stomp' I'm going with Spanish tuning.  From :05--:12 I'm hearing him droning on the D note on the 2nd string/3rd fret and the 2 bass notes are on the 6th str/3rd fret & open 5th string. I'm not at all confident in this but at least I'm finding it fun to play!

For the section starting at 39 secs I'm hearing 5th str/10th fret, slight bend then down to 8th fret, then 10th fret 6th string returning to 8th fret/5th str.

At 1:49 I'm hearing the 2nd,3rd,4th strings fretted at 10th fret, sometimes dropping down to the 8th fret.

Initially, I thought I'd get nowhere with this and I may not have done. Would loved to have spent more time on the tune but unfortunately have to be away with work over the next few days.

All the best, Ned

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1970 on: November 23, 2018, 04:34:25 AM »
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the tune? - Spanish capoed quite high at 5th or 6th fret; relative to capo I think he plays as follows:

   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is droning on one note and answering it with two descending notes in the bass.  Where, relative to tuning and capo placement, did he fret the two answering notes in the bass? - 5str 3fr bend>open 6 str
   * Starting at :39, John Lee Hooker hits a bend and releases it, goes down in pitch for a note, hits a lower note and returns to the second note, repeating this motif several times.  Where did he fret this passage? - 5str 5fr bend>5str 3fr>6str 5fr>5str 3fr
   * Starting around 1:49, John Lee Hooker frets a double stop in the treble, returning to it several times and sometimes sliding down from it in pitch.  Where did he fret the two notes in the double stop? - 2str 3fr + 1str 5fr

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1971 on: November 24, 2018, 09:35:08 AM »
Hi all,
Thanks to Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy for their responses on the John Lee Hooker puzzler, "Slim's Stomp".  Anyone care to join them?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

Offline eric

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1972 on: November 24, 2018, 10:24:43 AM »
I got as far as Open G capoed up, but have a tough time hearing the various riffs.  I think the Prof is on the right track.
--
Eric

Offline blueshome

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1973 on: November 25, 2018, 03:00:24 AM »
Having got round to it with a guitar and better speakers than my phone at last, I?m with the Professor.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1974 on: November 27, 2018, 08:47:51 AM »
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on John Lee Hooker's "Slim's Stomp" has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Texas Slim's (John Lee Hooker's) "Slim's Stomp":
   * His playing position was Spanish tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!  It ends up being capoed around the seventh fret on my guitar.  Of course, if John Lee was tuned to Spanish at A, it would gain him some neck and place the capo two frets lower than I had it, for I was tuned to Spanish at G.
   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is hitting the open third string and then answering it, first with the third fret of the fifth string and then with the first fret of the sixth string.  Naming those notes, assuming Spanish tuned at G with no capo on, you get G for the open third string, which is the key center, Bb for the third fret of the fifth string, the bIII in the key of G, and Eb for the first fret of the sixth string, a bVI note in G.  The three notes actually form an Eb major chord, struck in this order:  3-5-R. 
   To me, this little lick is the most remarkable thing in the whole piece.  I have never heard anyone else play anything like it in Spanish tuning.  Eb major is so remote from G major, that when I first heard the lick, i had one of those "You can't get there from here!" responses.  All credit to John Lee Hooker for originality and big ears.
   * For the passage beginning at :39, Prof Scratchy nailed one way of playing it, spot on the money.  The notes are bent fifth fret of the fifth string which is then released to its unbent pitch, third fret of the fifth string, open 5th string or fifth fret of the sixth string as the Prof had it, then returning to third fret of the fifth string.  Named as scale degrees the run is #IV-IV-bIII-I-bIII.  I think this run is much easier to hear than the :05--:12 lick--it has less of the "unmoored" quality of the earlier lick.  Well done, Prof!
   * At 1:49, the double stop that John Lee Hooker is hitting in the treble is the fifth fret of the first two strings, which suggest either a IV chord or a I6 chord.

In many ways, "Slim's Stomp" reminds me of the music of Ornette Coleman.  By maintaining a steady pulse, but retaining the freedom to play phrases of different lengths and spritz on an idea as long as his fancy dictates, John Lee Hooker operates in a realm of much greater freedom than he would have if he adhered strictly to conventional blues forms of whatever stripe.  He also avoids the predictability enforced by metric regularity, knowing when the IV and V chords are going to arrive in the form, etc.  The extent of the degree of freedom within which he is operating, and his own comfort with that degree of freedom make for a really exciting take which operates in a realm of being perpetually in the "now!".

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed "Slim's Stomp".  Thanks again, also, to Lightnin' for recommending the tune and to Lindy for finding it on youtube.

All best,
Johnm   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 04:03:58 PM by Johnm »

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1975 on: December 05, 2018, 01:36:21 PM »
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Carolina Slim's "I'll Get By Somehow".  Here it is:



The questions on "I'll Get By Somehow" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55?
   * How did Carolina Slim play and fret the passage near the end of his solo, in the bass, from 1:27--1:30?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, December 8.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "I'll Get By Somehow".
All best,
Johnm

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1976 on: December 10, 2018, 06:34:00 AM »
Hi all,
Any takers for the Carolina Slim puzzler, "I'll Get By Somehow"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1977 on: December 10, 2018, 11:38:48 AM »
* What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song? - G standard tuned low
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55? - 1str 3fr/1fr; 2str 3fr/1fr; 3str 3fr bend/ open
   * How did Carolina Slim play and fret the passage near the end of his solo, in the bass, from 1:27-- - against open 4str he descends on 5str 5fr/4fr/3fr 3fr; 6str 3fr



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 11:40:24 AM by Prof Scratchy »

Offline Old Man Ned

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1978 on: December 10, 2018, 12:41:42 PM »
I'm hearing this in G standard too and in agreement with the Prof on the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55.

For the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55, I'm also hearing this played against then open 4th string but hearing the 5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd fret of the 5th string before the 3rd fret of the 6th string, though I find myself wanting to play the b flat on 5th string in place of the b which I think I'm hearing.

Offline blueshome

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1979 on: December 13, 2018, 02:19:58 AM »
Well low out of G standard and everything the Prof says.
It?s like a cross  between Lightnin and BBFuller, especially Fuller like on the turnaround.

 


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