Topic: Pink Anderson - High Yellow

[iplayamartin0016]

I've been listening a lot to Pink Anderson and today I was listening to Every Day In The Week.  He sings, "I don't love no high yella, I ain't crazy 'bout no brown.  Boy you can't tell the difference when the sun goes down"

What is high yellow?

Also does anyone play any of Pinks stuff and make it sound like his guitar playing?

[Slack]

What is high yellow?

This refers to a very light complected black woman.  Black, brown, yellow, high yellow - black men (I should say all men) have their preferences.

Pink Anderson has an incredible touch - Pink is on one the Grossman videos and it is fascinating to watch him play, incredibly long spidery fingers using positions that only long spidery fingers can reach.

cheers,
slack

[waxwing]

Hey, iplaya,
You'll actually find quite a few blues about the preferences for different skin tones of a singers "rider". Usually all three are mentioned: black, brown, and high yellow. A high yellow woman could possibly pass for white and was often considered, by prewar blues singers, to be too haughty and proud. A black woman was sometimes, tho' not always, thought to be low down and nasty. Most singers, who sang about such things, seemed to prefer a fair brown, in particular, a teasin' brown. (usual PC disclaimer)
Sorry I can't help you on Pink's guitar stylings. I'm really only slightly familiar with his prewar recordings, with Simmie Dooley, and not at all with his rediscovery stuff.
All for now.
John C.
Dang, you slipped in there on me, Slack.

[iplayamartin0016]

Thanks for the replies.  My imagination had run wild.

I'm actually starting to get some of his stuff with the great bass runs.  It's going to take some time but what doesn't?

[frankie]

Pink is great - I think my favorite re-discovery era recordings of his are on Gospel, Blues and Street Songs.? Half is Pink Anderson and the other half is Rev. Davis.? It's a tremendous collection of music.? He had a stroke later that affected his playing to some degree, and I think the recordings after this point (the two Bluesville albums and the film footage on Vestapol) don't necessarily show him at the best of his abilities, but they're still 100% Pink and fun to listen to.

In the film footage on Vestapol, Pink gets a lot of mileage out of snapping the treble strings - something I don't recall him doing so much in earlier recordings - maybe this is a good reason to bust out some of those recordings... hehehehe...

[frankie]

I was just listening to Carl Martin on Testament again today - iplayamartin, if you like Pink's rediscovery recordings, you'll probably also like CM.  He's got a similar touch and something about the quality of his voice reminds me of Pink.  Great stuff!

[iplayamartin0016]

I'll check out Carl Martin this weekend.  Thanks for the heads up.  I've been working on John Miller's lesson  Meet Me In The Middle and it's a lot like the way that Pink does it.  My goal for the next month or so is to get it to sound like Pink.  I think I can do it!

[iplayamartin0016]

On the subject of high yellow, I thought I'd learn another John Hurt song and there it is in Big Leg Blues.

Some crave high yellow, I like black and brown.
Black won't quit you, brown won't lay you down.

I'm curious how many songs contain a reference to high yellow?  Also, when us middle-aged white boys sing these songs do you sing these lyrics? 

[Slack]

'm curious how many songs contain a reference to high yellow?? Also, when us middle-aged white boys sing these songs do you sing these lyrics?

I'd say quite a few songs refernce high yellow (and yellow).

It's up to you - some like to personalize lyrics, some like to sing the original (I like to sing the lyrics unless I cannot make them work rythmically, then I'll change 'em).? There is nothing wrong with middle age white guys singing these original lyrics, you can take Dick Justice as a model w/ "Picked Poor Robin" make that Cocaine Blues.

Here is an interesting link of old time racial terms - including High Yellow.

[Rivers]

Lead Belly had a total thing bout them.

...I ain't gonna ring them yellow womens' doorbells (Yellow Womens' Doorbells).

...and this tune, Yellow Gal, that mentioned them in every single line, amazing achievement and quite a good tune to play as well:

Oh my yellow, oh my yellow, oh my yellow gal (4)

Yes, I went home with the yellow gal (2)
Didn't say a thing to the yellow gal (2)

Daddy got stuck on my yellow gal (2)
He got thirty years with the yellow gal (2)

She's pretty and fine, she's a yellow gal (2)
She ain't none of mine, she's a yellow gal (2)

She's pretty and fair, she's the yellow gal (2)
She's got pretty hair, she's the yellow gal (2)

Oh the preacher got stuck on my yellow gal (2)
He got ten years with my yellow gal (2)

She's long and tall, is the yellow gal (2)
I love that gal, oh my yellow gal (2)

[uncle bud]

I'm going to take a different position on this one. I'm not normally one for political correctness, but the high yellow, brownskin and black designations in some tunes are a bit of a problem for me, depending on the context. Sometimes its relatively innocuous - kinda like singing about blondes, brunettes or redheads (which in itself may be offensive to some, I guess). But sometimes it's just plain offensive to modern listeners. There is an element of black-on-black discrimination to it that I, as a middle-aged white guy, would be uncomfortable singing. One interesting example of dealing with this is Pony Blues. Charley Patton sings:

And a brown-skin woman like something fit to eat
Brown-skin woman like something fit to eat
But a jet black woman, don't put your hand on me

As a white guy, I just don't think I'm going to sing this verse.

When Alvin Youngblood Hart - who'll never be mistaken for one of us middle-aged white hackers for any of a multitude of reasons - does this tune, he changes this verse in a way that is less potentially offensive, yet IMO still maintains the spirit of the country blues idiom:

Said them Memphis women (are) like somethin' fit to eat
Memphis women like somethin' fit to eat
But them Natchez women, don't you lay your hand on me

Thereby offending only women from Natchez

So for me, it's context I guess. I'm equally uncomfortable with some of the non-chalant brutality expressed towards women in a number of country blues tunes, particularly when it's a sort of throwaway line and not, say, in the context of something more like a murder ballad. For instance, I sometimes fool around with M&O Blues (but that said, I should point out that I do not perform):

Now when I leave her I'm gonna catch that M & O
Now when I leave her I'm gonna catch that M & O
I'm goin' way down south where I never been before

'Cause I had a notion, Lord, and I believe I will
'Cause I had a notion, Lord, and I believe I will
I'm gonna build me a mansion out on Decatur hill

I said all off you men oughta be ashamed of yourselves
I said all off you men oughta be ashamed of yourselves
Goin' round here swearin' before, God, you got a poor woman by yourself

I started to kill my woman till she lay down 'cross the bed
I started to kill my woman till she lay down 'cross the bed
And she looked so ambitious till I took back ev'rything I said

And I asked her how 'bout it, Lord, and she said all right
And I asked her how 'bout it, Lord, and she said all right
But she never showed up at the shack last night

These are a series of pretty much unrelated verses, no story is really unfolding from verse to verse, and that penultimate verse is just over-the-top offensive in a modern context. You could sing, "I started to leave my woman till she lay down 'cross the bed" and not affect the spirit of the song much.

So, just like I wouldn't do Luke Jordan's Traveling Coon, some of those high yellow, brown, black verses I ain't gonna touch.

IMO 

[waxwing]

Interesting, UB,
I take an entirely different view of M & O Blues. The line about the men bein' ashamed of themselves seems to indicate to me that he's showing them how wrong they are about who's in charge, thinkin' they "got" some woman. Then I thought the next verse was "I tried to kill my woman", but all she had to do was lay down on the bed, look "ambitious" and he was disarmed, then she didn't even show up at the shack when she said she would. Something I often point out to audiences is that many songs depicting doing violence to a lover were really describing how they felt towards the white bossman who had done them wrong in an entirely different way.
But how 'bout the "mumblepeg" verse in Buddy Moss' New Lovin' Blues (BTW I recently heard the Mumblepeg line sung clear as a bell by McTell, who has quite a few references to various shades), where his mama tells him "Don't drank no black cow's milk and don't you eat no black hen's egg." I felt a little funny singin' that recently for a multi-cultural audience, since it could be construed that I'm referring to my white mother.
All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

Then I thought the next verse was "I tried to kill my woman", but all she had to do was lay down on the bed, look "ambitious" and he was disarmed, then she didn't even show up at the shack when she said she would.

Tried or started, either way I'd have a problem. I'd agree with the rest of your interpretation, but I don't think it diminishes the first part of the verse. I don't want to get carried away here. I was just offering it as an example off the top of my head. I've been known to play Pistol Slapper Blues, although in that one there's more context for the threat of violence as he's dealing with a crazy, drunk, murderous, cheatin' woman. In M&O it really seems to me to be a throwaway macho line.

Something I often point out to audiences is that many songs depicting doing violence to a lover were really describing how they felt towards the white bossman who had done them wrong in an entirely different way.

Never heard this theory. Sounds suspiciously academic. Any songs in particular that fit this model? Interesting concept.

But how 'bout the "mumblepeg" verse in Buddy Moss' New Lovin' Blues (BTW I recently heard the Mumblepeg line sung clear as a bell by McTell, who has quite a few references to various shades), where his mama tells him "Don't drank no black cow's milk and don't you eat no black hen's egg." I felt a little funny singin' that recently for a multi-cultural audience, since it could be construed that I'm referring to my white mother.

Yes, I'd probably have a problem with that as well, depending on how sensitive I was feeling. It's a little more subtle though than, say, the Pony Blues verse. McTell, BTW, has the ultimate nasty song, A to Z Blues. Don't try singing that one in mixed company.

[Rivers]

It's a cartoon world, you have to be a cartoon character.

[frankie]

I'm with U.B. on this - one way I look at it is that the terms yellow/brown/black refer to a kind of social judgement that is fundamentally outside my experience.? If it doesn't feel right coming out of your mouth, don't sing it.

That being said, I might sing the line if I was playing it for someone who knew me and the music well and we both understood that I was recreating a particular performance of a particular song.? I wouldn't sing the line if I was performing.

[Richard]

Interesting thread.

Which version of M&O are you referring to...? The only one I seem to have is one the three (first?) versions that Walter Roland recorded.

Also, didn't Georgia Tom and poss with Big Bill do a version as well?

[uncle bud]

Hi Richard,

I was referring to the version by Patton protege Willie Brown. Recorded in 1930, I think. It was a bit of a tangent, in that the question I was responding to referred to racial characterizations and not violence against women. I was just offering another example of things I might be uncomfortable singing.

cheers,
uncle bud

[waxwing]

Willie Brown. Flip side of Future Blues. Recorded at the infamous Charley Patton/Son House Grafton, WI recording session in '29 for Paramount. His only extant solo work except for a version of Make Me a Pallet recorded much later by Lomax. There was a second 78 released but never found. I think Chicago Defender adverts exist.
All for now.
John C.

[waxwing]

Dang, beat me by a minute UB.
John C.

[Slack]

We talked about his some in the very old list.? I've performed 'Old Devil' and sung this verse:

I beat my baby with a rope and a line.?
I beat my baby man with a rope and a line.?
I beat my baby, ain't no joke, no lie this time.?
With a rope and a line until she went stone blind.

I just introduce it by saying who wrote it and what he was known for, the year written and that attitudes towards women have certainly changed.? (No woman came up to me later and accused me of perpetuating violence toward women.)? I love the era (and every era has its ugliness) and it is an oporrtunity to travel back in time.? I think if you "white wash" lyrics too much you miss the opportunity to travel back to a different era (I'm a romantic? ) --- plus, I just don't care that much what an audience would think of me.
 
cheers,
slack

[Richard]

Regarding M&O - well I to admit that Willie Brown is certainly someone I have not come across before and the G&D bible only lists him as doing about 4 sides altogther 1930 which are as rare as rockinghorse droppings so I'll let myself off the hook!
Would it be a total pain to post an mp3, be interesting to hear it - although having just said 'hear it' I notice the originals were of famed Paramount lo-fi quality...

As to the substance of the rest of the posts, I rather think that if you are offering your version of song for public consumption then it's your perogative to change lyrics as you see fit much as you might change the arrangement to suit your playing. But, certain numbers may need to be as-is to make them work, in which case Slack has the right to approach by introducing them as such. Really, how long is a piece of string... 

[uncle bud]

Yes, Slack, this is one I was avoiding mentioning, if only to avoid rehashing old debates, but also because my introduction of the violence in some lyrics was straying off topic. I fully support your playing Old Devil (edited to add: or anyone playing it) and including that verse, especially if you are putting it in context. And on another level, like Frank noted, it's very different when you are playing something at, say, Port Townsend among people who know the song, the genre, and you. I wouldn't claim that by singing it you're perpetuating violence against women. That verse, in particular, is shocking in its violence but also very grimly poetic in a way. I understand someone choosing to sing it. These are matters of personal choice and comfort levels and my only point - poorly made - was that I personally don't feel comfortable singing some lyrics, especially the casual lines of violence tossed into an otherwise regular ol' country blues tune, and would be very hesitant about singing some of them in a regular performance situation, i.e., not a bunch of hard-core country blues maniacs.

 

[Johnm]

Hi all,
One thing that has occurred to me as I read the posts on this topic, with sympathy both for singing non-p.c. lyrics as a reflection either of the time from which they arose or recognition that "Everything is NOT beautiful, in its special way", but also  for rejecting lyrics on the basis of their arising from a racial context which the present-day singer doesn't share, or celebration of funky violence.  I have rejected lyrics in the past on moral grounds, but I've also rejected them on grounds of "believability", feeling like "This lyric just isn't me, and there's no use pretending it is.  And what's more, an audience, even one that has never seen or heard me before is going to know that too.."  I suppose you could say that in the Blues, you are dealing with a stylized form of expression that is talking about the human condition in a general sense, but over the years I've come to feel that if there is too big a gap between what lyrics are professing and what I, in fact, feel, it's like taking some kind of false loyalty oath.  I guess I can't sell it if I don't feel it.
All best,
Johnm   

[Rivers]

Sell it? Hell I can't even give it away.

Once backed a wildman friend, well known in gospel music circles, for a couple of tunes. One was "You Shouldn't Do That", Casey Bill Weldon. Lovely tune, very stupid lyrics. "I'm gonna take that pistol slap it in my baby's face... some lonesome graveyard will be her hiding place".

He's playing lap steel and I get to do the swing chops and pastoral doo-wop backup vocal part, urging "You shouldn't do that, you shouldn't do that" after each line. This guy takes wicked delight in being un-pc and everybody knows it so he gets away. Anyway I believe it's all a cartoon, as I said earlier.

Another time I was playing Hesitation Blues in a kitchen at a festival. The room was packed and it was going well. This girl puts on a guitar and starts picking along pretty good and sings a verse. We start taking alternate verses slagging off each others' respective sexes. It was very funny, the crowd loved it and I've been hoping to bump into her ever since.

See I think all this is related to The Dozens, that game they play where you insuilt people until someone loses it. Out of context it's just painful and embarrassing. In context it's very funny and just part of the tradition. We analyse this stuff too much I think, should get out and play more. Not on a stage, in a room full of people sitting around having a good time.

"...I will now perform See That My Grave Is Kept Clean by Mr. Blind Lemon Jefferson in the Key of E..." (cracks knuckles, coughs, crosses eyes, a respectful hush descends on the auditorium...)

[Buzz]

Interestin thread.

Observations: 1. Agree with opinions that ifyou don't feel it, don't sing it. PC or not. Me, I am from New Orleans, knew high yellow and jet black Mamas, and though i never slept with any of them, I feel they are in my blood and history, and sing the lyrics as they occur.
2. Color of a Black woman relates to amount of white blood. Jet blacks were traditional African slaves, or as their own Black brethren referred/? still do--offensively-- to them in the old projects in N. O.: "field niggers" . I would never refer to anyone that way, but they do to each other. A slave who was the illegitimate offspring of the master, with any white blood was a mulatto or "house nigger"--AKA "home boy", "homey", and it depended on how much white blood  the person possessed, as to whether they were brown or yellow. Octaroons had 1/8 white blood, and could pass as white if the hair did not betray their racial heritage. Some even had light colored eyes. Today, with further gorgeous blending of the races, we have Vanessa Williams and Tyra Banks with their grace and beauty to demonstrate the lighter complexions of African Americans.

3. High Yellows were at one time scorned by Black African Americans as inferior, because of the white blood. I  was not there,  and still can't understand it, but that was because of their different experiences under Slavery and  Jim Crow. High Yellows  had very light brown pigmentation, to the point of almost appearing yellow, though if next to an Asian, the color would likely not appear 'yellow".

4. I believe there is only reference to different sexual talents or tastes of different African American women, based on their color, only because of old wive's tales, folk myths, oral tradition, voodoo, etc. Clearly there is no scientific basis for  any physical, sexual, psychological, or moral difference based on such differences. The song writers and performers heard it or experienced it  one way and believed it, and repeated the rumor/myth.

5. This is my accumulated experience, but I may be wrong. One could ask Phil or John Cephas, seriously.

6. Pink is terrific. John M has taught us a couple of his tunes and his techniques: Meet Me in the Bottom, his version Catfish Blues with unwound G. Ponk has a couple of nice tunes on the Smithsonian Folkways Anthology vol 4: That's no Way to Be, Play that thing. Also, Son House Depot Blues is on that, and HoneyBoy's Big Fat Momma, which  has great rhythym and beat.

So, there you have it. MHO.
Miller

[frankie]

Something I often point out to audiences is that many songs depicting doing violence to a lover were really describing how they felt towards the white bossman who had done them wrong in an entirely different way.

I thought this theory was put forth as an explanation of certain types of abuse within African American families, and was connected ultimately to slavery.  I'm not saying that it can't be applied to blues lyrics - are you saying that blues lyrics depicting violence toward women are speaking in "code"?  It's interesting, but I've never come across that before.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've been thinking about your post, Mark, and some of the stuff you brought up.

Anyway I believe it's all a cartoon, as I said earlier.

Certainly a lot of stuff is cartoonish, "Tight Like That", "Your Biscuits Are Big Enough For Me", the whole Hokum side of things.? But then you have "Hard Time Killing Floor Blues",
"Last Kind Word", "That's No Way To Get Along", and a whole slew of Blues which are not remotely cartoonish.? Of course it is possible to be stupefied by respect, but I am not particularly interested in hearing cartoonish renditions of Skip James or Lil Son Jackson material.? And with Skip in particular, I've wondered how he functioned in situations where he was expected to entertain--probably played a lot of piano. I saw him perform, and I think the last word I would use to describe what he was putting across would be "fun".?
For the Hokum side of things, an earnest approach is just silly, of course, and is guaranteed to suck the fun of out of stupid material like Bo Carter's "Beans", or Lonnie Johnson's "Blues For Murder Only".? (Come to think of it, an earnest rendition of "Beans" would be side-splitting.)? Basically it seems like you have to own what you do, and if you are going to sing some Dirtball material, you need to be the Dirtball.?

We analyse this stuff too much I think, should get out and play more. Not on a stage, in a room full of people sitting around having a good time.

Hear, Hear!

"...I will now perform See That My Grave Is Kept Clean by Mr. Blind Lemon Jefferson in the Key of E..." (cracks knuckles, coughs, crosses eyes, a respectful hush descends on the auditorium...)

I reckon there has to be something better than this, but I don't think a "party" version is the answer.? It seems like you just have to get to the point with your material where it all sounds right coming out of you, and you can go where you want to with it.?
I looked at the preview?of this message and I don't know how to work the quote thing.? Sorry about that.
All best,
Johnm

[edit: fixed up the quote thing for ya!]

[Rivers]

John, great post, brings the discussion nicely into balance. My 'cartoon' allusion was a 180 degree position that was lurking on the sidelines. There are two ends of the spectrum, fun and serious. Playing social music takes in both and all points in between.

Humor can be sophisticated and up front if you can muster the panache to carry it off and context is everything. Example that comes to mind is Johnny Cash singing San Quinten Blues to a room full of lifers who are cheering and laughing. 'San Quinten, you're a living hell to me'.

Whether or not it's judged to be appropriate is in the domain of the audience. Whether you choose to play it or not is your judgement based on some animal survival reflex probably. Personally I can't be bothered to sing about stuff I have to explain or apologise for.

Re. country blues cartoons, there are a lot of them. Besides hokum there's Frankie, Stack 'O Lee, John Hardy, Kassie Jones, the lighter side of murder & mayhem, visual stories spaced out like frames on the funny page. That's the way I see them, visually. Sometimes I see speech bubbles...

[uncle bud]

For the Hokum side of things, an earnest approach is just silly, of course, and is guaranteed to suck the fun of out of stupid material like Bo Carter's "Beans", or Lonnie Johnson's "Blues For Murder Only".? (Come to think of it, an earnest rendition of "Beans" would be side-splitting.)?

I don't want no more navy beans, boys I don't want no more
I don't want no more navy beans, they're 'bout to make my stomach sore
I ate 'em last night and the night before, when I got through I couldn't shut my door
I don't want no more navy beans, boys I don't want no more

I have worked on this one. Great tune for a song about intestinal difficulties. (I think I've now taken this thread so far off topic it's irredeemable? )

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I recently re-read this thread in the course of de-farkling (removing glitches) from the Forum.  I thought some of you might find it interesting; it gets at some issues pertaining to choice of material and performance of this material.  See what you think.
All best,
Johnm

[a2tom]

Thanks John, great thread.? I'm sure there is a lot lurking in Weenine land I don't have time to go back and reread, so I appreciate a repost of the "classics".? Since this is new to me, I can't help but add a few thoughts.? No need to respond if this is a too-worn thread for y'all - thought provoking writing this, so I thought I post it.

How coud anyone who plays the CB not almost immediately come to the question "how/can/should I sing that?".? Be it racial, misogynistic, ribald, anachronistic, or simply foreign.? The thread mostly addresses non-PC lyrics, but the ideas can easily extend to something as simple as "Take this hammer and carry it to the captain" - I mean, what the heck do I know about hard labor, the railroad, or relationship to a "boss" I ought to sing the Day Care Blues - now that I have personal insight into.

I started making a list of ways one might sing words that are not "you:"

historical re-creation
playacting (the constant role of a performer)
cartoon (extreme form of playacting)
narrator (emotionally removed: these aren't my words, I'm just the messenger)
metaphor (e.g. expressing personal thoughts/emotions with foreign but powerful words)
disinterested (who cares what the words mean, they just sound good)
wishful (hoping your audience won't understand what they mean any more than you used to)
blissfully ignorant

Depending on where I felt I was falling on that range I could sing potentially anything - even the blatantly offensive or grossly foreign -? to needing to be more selective/revisionist/personalizing of old words.? It would also greatly affect how much I felt compelled to explain it to my audience.? I must say though that in general if I have to explain it, it will end up coming across worse then if I just let it speak for itself.? That said, I don't think I could ever perform "you keep your yellow, I like 'em black and brown", or a number of other things, convincingly.? Just too foregin, even as a metaphor.?

BTW, I would add that if you are going to sing it, I think it is a good idea to understand it.? I've made a few gaffs in not totally "getting" certain euphimisms.? Nothing will come across worse than singing "high yellow" in a way that made it clear that you didn't understand the racial implication.? Thank god for places like WC so us middle-aged white guys can air these things out!

In the end it is a moot point for me - the Back Porch is the only place I ever get to perform!? But hey, that's an international audience, Mom...

tom