Topic: SOTM 04APRIL2018 How Long - How Long Blues

[Johnm]

Hi all,
The Barbecue Bob song appears to be a version of "Corinna, Corinna".  I remember seeing a similar trend in "Milk Cow Blues", where there was the version that most people played or covered, but where there were also stylistic outliers or just different songs that used the same title, perhaps just because it was so deeply a part of the commonly shared pool of lyric phrases.
All best,
Johnm

[Old Man Ned]

Thanks for all the additions to How Long Blues.  Love George Torey's version. Yeah, I'd like to say I included the Franks Stokes version to stimulate interest and debate but truth is I got a bit carried away and put it in mainly because I like Frank Stokes :-)

Here's a couple more versions I've found.  First from Dinah Washington and then Ella Fitzgerald from her 'These Are the Blues' album

[DavidCrosbie]

The Barbecue Bob song appears to be a version of "Corinna, Corinna". 

Of course Barbecue Bob brought the Corinna, Corinne verses to the mix, but the standard question in that song is not 'How long, how long?'but rather 'Where you been so long?'. I can't help feeling that Bob got his question from the sort of song that Frank Stokes was singing. And there's even the echo of the vaudeville song: How long Pretty Mama how long, how long? echoing Alberta Hunter's How long Sweet Daddy how long, how long? That's not to say that Bob had listened to Alberta, but there could well be an indirect link.

Having written this, I listened intensively to the various records. And I'm more convinced than ever.

The vaudeville blues as sung by Alberta Hunter and Alberta Brown comprises an introductory verse to a composed-sounding melody, followed by two choruses to a tune not unlike that of Corinne, Corinna. A version by Daisy Martin? not available on YouTube ?  differs only  in having a second verse to the opening tune; each verse is followed by those two choruses.

The Daisy Martin version is titled How Long? How Long? (Absent Blues) ? which suggests strongly that it is the song listed on Peter Muir's Long Lost Blues website

http://longlostblues.com/blues-list/

? DATE     TITLE                                               WORDS              MUSIC                NAME & LOCATION OF PUBLISHER
04/10/20   How Long, How Long: Absent Blues   T. Everett White   T. Everett White   T. Everett White, St. Louis

I bet that White took the chorus tune from something around in the tradition, tidied up the words, and added a couple or more verses with a tin-pan-alley-type tune.

The three vaudeville artists sang (with minor variations)

VERSE
Down in my heart there lies a scream of misery
My daddy left and didn't have a word to say
Lonesome, I'm awfully lonesome
For people, he was the grandest man
In all this world to me
CHORUS 1
Now if you see my own dear daddy
Please tell him I said to hurry home
The days so lonesome, the nights so long
I ain't had no loving since he's been gone
CHORUS 2
I can't forget the way he used to hold me in his loving' arms
And call me mama, oh sweet sweet mama
Daddy, sweet daddy, how long how long?

Frank Stokes rang the changes on the two choruses. His first two choruses are

I never never never never  : can forget that day
When you called me baby : how long how long
I ain't had no loving : since my baby gone

If you see my baby baby baby : tell her to hurry home
I ain't had no good feeling : how long how long
And I'm on my way babe : how long how long

Barbecue Bob even managed to fit in part of the VERSE lyrics

I can't forget the way : she held me in her loving arms
She called my papa : oh sweet daddy
Now tell me pretty mama : how long how long

Down in my heart : there's screams of misery
Corinne she left me : without a word to say
She was the kindest one : all in this world to me

If you see my own dear mama : tell her hurry on home
Bout the days are lonesome : and the nights so long
I ain't had no lovin' : child since you been gone

[DavidCrosbie]

It seems likely to me that Leroy Carr took a fancy to the repetitious phrase How long, how long? and attached it to a different question that was kicking around in Blues lyrics: How long has the train been gone? From a  quick trawl through Jeff Taft's concordance:

http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConcordance/c356.htm#LONG

How long : evening train been gone
Yes I'm worried now : but I won't be worried long

Now I went to the station : fold my arms and moan
Asked the operator : how long my rider been gone

I asked the operator : how long the train been gone
Your train been gone : ever since this morn

Down to the depot mama Lord : I looked up on the board
Lord I asked the ticket agent : how long the southbound train been gone

I went to the depot : and looked up on the board
Oh I asked the operator : how long that train been gone

I said ticket agent : how long your train been gone
Say yon go the train : that this fair brown left here on

I went to the depot : looked up on the board
I asked the conductor : how long has this eastbound train been gone

[DavidCrosbie]

The repeated question How long how long? also caught the fancy of the Church. That's assuming that it wasn' the other way round ? I suppose it's possible that the phrase originated in exasperated sermons against sin.

One popular preacher, Rev AW Nix, recorded a sermon titled How Long, How Long. JSP Records has reissued it on the Friends of Leroy Carr disc in their Leroy Carrr Volume Two box set. So they think they know who used the phrase first. It's not on YouTube, alas, and my free trial of software to make a lo-fi file has elapsed.

What is on YouTube is this exciting performance by Sister Ola Mae Terrell.



I think perhaps I detect an echo of an echo of Leroy Carr's song in her guitar riff.

Rev Charles White uses the single question How long? with a view to death since Before this Time another year, I may be gone.



Goldia Haynes asks God the single question Oh Lord, How Long?  ? much like in Hesitating Blues with its How long do I have to wait?. Not on YouTube, but well worth searching out.

[Johnm]

Congratulations on your industry, David Crosbie.  It looks like you have found connections in the lyrics to a number of the songs that don't share obvious musical similarities, otherwise.  Well done.
All best,
Johnm

[Old Man Ned]

Thanks David for the research, I find this sort of stuff fascinating. Much appreciate the effort and the links.
All the best,
Ned

[Rivers]

Yep David, you have added some great perspective, as usual. The touchstone is likely the compelling question itself: "How Long?"

[DavidCrosbie]

To complement the Ray Charles instrumental version with Milt jackson, here's Ray singing



And here's  Robert Lockwood Junior



And Johnny Fuller



Not on YouTube but recommended:

• Bill Gaither's How Long Baby How Long?. One place to find this is on a CD of  him and Bumble Bee Slim, which forms part of JSP's Leroy Carr Volume Two box set. (Rev AW Nix's How Long sermon  and Tampa Red's solo instrumental version  feature on another disc in the set.)

• Josh White's How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone. I don't always care for Josh's singing, but he performs the song simple and straight on a recording made for a Freedom Concert at the Library of Congress.

• Guitar Pete Franklin's How Long Blues (playing piano, despite his name) on Art Rosenbaum's Art of Field Recording Vol 1.
  
  
  • Finally, for Brits who were around in the late fifties, the nostalgic sound of How Long Blues by the Avon Cities Skiffle Group on this JSP box set.
    
    

[DavidCrosbie]

I finally got round to looking it up in the Encyclopaedia of the Blues edited by Edward Komara.



There aren't too may entries for songs, but there is one for How Long How Long written by Komara himself. He begins:

"How Long How Long" was first recorded as "How Long Daddy How Long" by Ida Cox with "Papa" Charlie Jackson on banjo in 1925 for Paramount Records (Paramount 12325). The song was later transcribed and published in a Paramount songbook. The form is of eight measures, split into a four-measure verse and a four-measure refrain. Harmonically the melody stays in one chord, using the flattened seventh scale step as an inflection dissonance during the second four measure. Because of the eight-measure length and the simple nature of the tune, it may be of unknown origin and transmitted by tradition.

[The American 'measure' = the British term 'bar'.]

I was puzzled by the harmony bit, until I realised that he was talking about what Ida was singing ? not what Charlie was playing. Anyway, I listened afresh to the Cox-Jackson record, and I think I have a clearer idea of what Carr and Blackwell did with the song.

• Harmony for one thing. Carr's tune ? the tune he sings ? is much richer.
• Text. I was mistaken in thinking that Carr originated the pairing of How Long How Long with the train been gone question, but he did do something different with it. The Cox-Jackson song strings together a collection of verses linked by nothing more than a mood. There's such a random free association that the old Hesitating Blues verse gets a look in. Carr by contrast stayed with the first verse and composed a coherent text of about three minutes' duration around the theme. This is what the record companies wanted ? because they could copyright newly composed songs and make more money. But it was also what the public wanted.
• The rest is obvious, and has been said time and again: Carr and Blackwell were fine musicians; Carr's singing was hugely attractive; the laid-back style struck a perfect note for a changing Black society.

Komara points out that Carr re-used the music with You Got To Reap What You Sow



This song was covered by Tampa Red



And, without committing himself he reports

It is also said that the song was among the first blues learned by Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.

The rest of the article is more surprising, and may not be accepted by everybody. For Komara, Sitting On Top Of The World is basically the same song with a new and different set of lyrics, with longer lines and so without the pauses. I'll post his thoughts on the appropriate thread

https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10934.0

[DavidCrosbie]

YouTube doesn't have that Skiffle version I recommended, but it does have this version by Lonnie Donegan



Sorry if it sounds odd to American ears ? and to young ears. But you might be less critical of this version by the Chris Barber band with Ottlilie Patterson. Lonnie started out in the band, and may well be the banjo player on this recording.



In those days we spoke of Trad Jazz (like the Barber band) and Modern Jazz (bebop and after). Everything else was big-band Swing or small-band[b ]Mainstream Jazz[/b] ? where they also played How Long How Long.

For example, Jimmy Witherspoon with Ben Webster and Gerry Mulligan



Wingy Manone



the Earl Hines band with Barbara Dane



And here's a revival of an old piano blues style by Stephanie Trick and Christian Bleiming ? suffering, I think, from having two left hands clunking away. But interesting



A piano player who didn't need to 'revive': Jay McShann



And another musician playing as he always had, Albert Nicholas



Finally, the Godfather of the British Blues Revival Alexis Korner and a bunch of mates, backing a young Ruby Turner.



Postscript

Just found this by Odetta



PostPostscript

Of the aforesaid British Blues Revival: Eric Clapton

[DavidCrosbie]

I finally got round to looking it up in the Encyclopaedia of the Blues edited by Edward Komara.



There aren't too may entries for songs, but there is one for How Long How Long written by Komara himself. He begins:

"How Long How Long" was first recorded as "How Long Daddy How Long" by Ida Cox with "Papa" Charlie Jackson on banjo in 1925 for Paramount Records (Paramount 12325). The song was later transcribed and published in a Paramount songbook. The form is of eight measures, split into a four-measure verse and a four-measure refrain. Harmonically the melody stays in one chord, using the flattened seventh scale step as an inflection dissonance during the second four measure. Because of the eight-measure length and the simple nature of the tune, it may be of unknown origin and transmitted by tradition.

[The American 'measure' = the British term 'bar'.]

I was puzzled by the harmony bit, until I realised that he was talking about what Ida was singing ? not what Charlie was playing. Anyway, I listened afresh to the Cox-Jackson record, and I think I have a clearer idea of what Carr and Blackwell did with the song.

• Harmony for one thing. Carr's tune ? the tune he sings ? is much richer.
• Text. I was mistaken in thinking that Carr originated the pairing of How Long How Long with the train been gone question, but he did do something different with it. The Cox-Jackson song strings together a collection of verses linked by nothing more than a mood. There's such a random free association that the old Hesitating Blues verse gets a look in.
  
  STOP PRESS I've just found this link to the Carr-Jackson lyrics https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=790.250;wap2
  
  Carr by contrast stayed with the first verse and composed a coherent text of about three minutes' duration around the theme. This is what the record companies wanted ? because they could copyright newly composed songs and make more money. But it was also what the public wanted.
• The rest is obvious, and has been said time and again: Carr and Blackwell were fine musicians; Carr's singing was hugely attractive; the laid-back style struck a perfect note for a changing Black society.

Komara points out that Carr re-used the music with You Got To Reap What You Sow



This song was covered by Tampa Red



And, without committing himself he reports

It is also said that the song was among the first blues learned by Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.

The rest of the article is more surprising, and may not be accepted by everybody. For Komara, Sitting On Top Of The World is basically the same song with a new and different set of lyrics, with longer lines and so without the pauses. I'll post his thoughts on the appropriate thread

https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10934.0