Topic: Frank Stokes' Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[frankie]

I've been listening a lot to Frank Stokes and Dan Sane lately, so I thought I'd share this:

Number	Title	Stokes	Sane	Pitch	Notes
1	You Shall	D	G	F
2	It's A Good Thing	D	G	G+	sounds like a problem with playback/recording speed
3	Sweet To Mama	G	C	Bflat-
4	Half Cup Of Tea	G	C	B
5	Beale Town Bound	C	G	A	High guitar by Sane/FS also flatpicking
6	Last Go Round	C/G	F/C	D
7	Jazzin' The Blues	G	C	A
8	You Shall	D	G	F
9	It's A Good Thing	D	G	F
10	Mr. Crump Don't Like It	C	F	Eflat
11	Chicken You Can Roost Behind The Moon	G	C	Bflat-
12	Blues In D	D	G	E
13	Ain't Goin' To Do Like I Used To Do	G	C	B
14	Hunting Blues	D	G	A-
15	Rockin' On The Hill Blues	A	D	D-
16	Fillin' In Blues - Part 1	G	C	C+
17	Fillin' In Blues - Part 2	G	C	C+
18	Wasn't That Doggin' Me	G	C	Dflat-
19	Jumpin' On The Hill	A	D	Eflat
20	Downtown Blues (Take 1)	G	C	C-
21	Downtown Blues (Take 2)	G	C	B
22	Bedtime Blues	A	D	D
23	What's The Matter Blues	D	G	G-
24	Mistreatin' Blues	E	n/a	F
25	It Won't Be Long Now (Take 1)	C	n/a	Dflat+
26	It Won't Be Long Now (Take 2)	C	n/a	Dflat
27	Nehi Mamma Blues	C	n/a	Dflat+
28	I Got Mine	C	n/a	Dflat
29	Stomp That Thing	C	F	Dflat+
30	Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do - Part 1	C	F	Eflat-
31	Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do - Part 2 (Take 1)	C	F	D
32	Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do - Part 2 (Take 2)	C	F	Eflat-
33	Take Me Back	C	F	Eflat-
34	How Long	C	F	Eflat-
35	South Memphis Blues	G	n/a	G-	Will Batts - G std
36	Bunker Hill Blues	D	n/a	D-	Will Batts - D/GDAD
37	Right Now Blues	C	n/a	Dflat	Will Batts - C
38	Shiney Town Blue	G	n/a	Aflat	Will Batts - G std
39	Frank Stokes' Dream	E	n/a	F
40	Memphis Rounders Blues	D	n/a	Eflat-

In general, Stokes is using a capo to raise the pitch of his guitar and Sane is usually tuned somewhat low - sometimes as much as 3 half steps low.  I had to do an ear adjustment on Beale Town Bound - sounds like they swapped guitars!  I also included Will Batts' fiddle keys - no surprises there, except Bunker Hill Blues, where I think his high string is tuned down a whole step to D.

[Johnm]

Hi Frank,
Thanks for posting this information.  I've been listening a lot to Frank Stokes and Dan Sane lately, too.  I've particularly been listening to "Shiney Town Blues" and "Right Now Blues" so that I can learn Will Batts' fiddle parts to play at Port Townsend at the Frank Stokes jam.  I've been working from versions of those songs that I have on vinyl, and in that format, at least, "Shiney Town" comes out pretty much on the dot in A and "Right Now" similarly comes out squarely in D, and they both sit really easily on the fiddle, even including Will Batts' double stop comping on "Right Now".  Were the versions you have been working from on a CD that has been pitch-corrected?  Both tunes would definitely be easier for me in the keys I've heard them in than the keys one step lower, though the difficulties there wouldn't be insurmountable.
All best,
Johnm

[frankie]

The recordings were from different sources, but "Shiney Town" and "Right Now" are both from the JSP Memphis Blues set.  I'm not sure if they were pitch corrected, but they sounded to me in G and C, respectively, even before I checked the pitch - I always do that last, and the pitch of the recording isn't particularly persuasive in this case, anyway.  I agree that the double stop in "Right Now" are playable in D, but the last one on the two bottom strings would put you in the extreme north of 1st position, where the C double stop is a little more of a slam dunk (so to speak!) and sounds right to me.  I only listened to "Shiney Town" a couple of times, but seems to sit squarely in G territory, particularly a double stop using the open 3rd string and the 1st finger on the 2nd string - eminently do-able in A, just a little more work.  Will Batts seems more of C and G guy on the fiddle for the most part...  I think every tune he did with Jack Kelly is done in either C or G, tuned down three half-steps to sound in A and E.

[Johnm]

Thanks for the clarification, Frank.  I haven't done it a whole lot, but I reckon trying to figure out how a fiddle part was played must be much like figuring out how a guitar part was played--listen for the position and plausibility on the instrument rather than the pitch.
All best,
Johnm

[frankie]

I realize I probably think that this is more interesting than most well-adjusted people, but I'd really appreciate any additional observations on what Sane is playing when Stokes is in C.  It sounds like F to me in a general sense, although, when you look at the bass run possibilities, a lot of the same sounds are possible in F and C...  just move over one string.  Based on the "formula,"  F would seem to be the right key, and he does seem to studiously avoid the IV chord, playing a three note riff based on the open D and G strings:  D - F - G / D - F - G / D - F - G  sounds great!  If you were to do the same riff relative to the key of C (over the F chord), you'd move it over to start on the A string:  A - C - D / A - C - D / A - C - D - still sounds great!

One thought I had was that he might simply be playing in C as well, and leaning hard on the bass strings.  I need to go listen again and see if I can tease out any really low bass notes over the I chord - that would cinch F, I think...

[Cleoma]

Right Now Blues -- that is just beautiful and not one I was familiar with.  I believe that the fiddle may be playing out of C position.  That makes it easier to play that arpeggio fiddle backup.  I think I am hearing some open E notes in the middle of those chords.  Plus the last double stop really sounds like a C and e to me. 
Although - listening again, maybe it is in D after all.  I'll try to figure this out...
Suzy

[uncle bud]

Just a minor observation, so figured I'd tack it on here rather than start a new topic, and it does have to do with Frank Stokes accompaniment style.

On those songs with fiddle listed above (South Memphis Blues, Bunker Hill Blues, Right Now Blues, and Shiney Town Blues) as well as the two additional songs with fiddle not listed (Old Sometime Blues and I'm Going Away Blues), it strikes me as slightly odd how pared down Stokes' guitar playing is. It is pretty much straight boom chang through all six songs. It seems to be a conscious decision to play in a different style when a fiddle is involved.

These were all recorded at Stokes' last few sessions in September 1929. But it's not like he had changed playing styles dramatically, since the last two solo tracks Frank Stokes' Dream and Memphis Rounders Blues are both back to being fairly busy.

[waxwing]

How do these tracks compare with his purported playing (as Dan Sing) behind Batts' fiddle and Jack Kelly's guitar on the South Memphis Jug Band sides, recorded in August of '33? I'm only really familiar with the sides where Kelly plays with the guitar in Spanish (at A I think), but Sane seems to be doing more than a straight Boom-chang.

Wax

[uncle bud]

I was referring to Stokes' playing. Sane isn't on these tracks, and yes, on the South Memphis Jug Band sides, Sane is playing more than boom chang. These Stokes/Batts tracks really feature almost no embellishment on the guitar.

[waxwing]

Oh, sorry, i got confused looking at the chart and jumped to the wromg conclusion.

Wax

[jugblowr]

To my ear, Sane is doing pretty much the same thing with Stokes as he is with Jack Kelly's South Memphis Jug Band.  I find it powerfully simple and love getting my guitar player play that way while I do the Kelly or Stokes parts.  It's proto-rock for sure.

http://www.rootstone.net/

[nitrablues]

Just a "not very important" comment on Right now blues. The fiddle is quite probably tuned 1/2 step up. Could it just be that they both tuned 1/2 step up that the A440?

[Pan]

Just a "not very important" comment on Right now blues. The fiddle is quite probably tuned 1/2 step up. Could it just be that they both tuned 1/2 step up that the A440?

Hi nitrablues.

Welcome to Weenie Campbell.

You could be right, or the recording just might be sped up a little. FWIW "Shiny Town Blues" supposedly recorded on the same date, also seems to be roughly a 1/2 step above concert pitch. The guitar plays out of the G position, if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers

Pan

[Mark Miller]

Hi everybody, new member here, also pretty new to learning country blues fingerpicking (and have only been learning guitar at all for about 2 years).  I'm starting in with Stefan Grossman's beginner-level videos (Fingerpicking Guitar Techniques and Fingerpicking Country Blues Guitar), supplemented by his book Complete Country Blues Guitar.  Lots of MJH early on, which is great since he's probably my favorite.  Anyway, here's my question.  I'm learning Grossman's version of Stokes' It Won't Be Long, which I'm capoing at 1 to get in what sounds like the right key (which fits with comments on another thread here.)  Grossman's tab is pretty close to what Stokes plays in the instrumental sections of the song, though it sounds a little simplified to my ear.  When I have that down, I'm going to try to work out Stokes's variations by ear.  But I'm not sure what to do during the sung verses.  There are some simple syncopated melodic riffs in a kind of call and response with the vocals, which shouldn't be too hard to work out.  But is Stokes playing an alternating bass "boom-chick," or is he doing more of a "boom-brush" to get more of a chordal feel?  For instance, I can hear that the song goes into C7 in the fourth measure (in the "response" to the opening verse line), but I don't get much of that sound doing alternating bass even if I finger the chord.  If I do more of a brush with my thumb on the 2 and 4 beats, I can pick up the C7 a bit, but the sound flattens out or gets duller compared to the punchiness of alternating bass.  Is this just the limitation of doing a solo arrangement of what was really as two-guitar song, or is there a technique that as a newbie I'm just not picking up on?

[banjochris]

First, there's only Stokes on "It Won't Be Long," so that should make learning it easier, at least conceptually.

He definitely does more of a brush on the 2 and 4, but it's not a gentle brush. The trick is to hit the bass note in such a way that it sounds just like if you were doing crisp alternating bass but then the thumb takes a chunk out of the adjoining strings, too. I would go so far as to say that this is the way most country blues fingerpickers play alternating bass; players who play a crisp, articulated single bass note without any brush are few and far between. (There are a few -- Elizabeth Cotten comes to mind, for instance).

Also in "It Won't Be Long," there are a couple of other things going on: First, at the end of the sung lines, as he repeats the E and/or C notes on the first and second strings, his index finger (and/or middle finger, if he used it, which it sounds to me like he probably does) is also doing a bit of brushing back toward the middle strings of the guitar in exactly the same way that his thumb is. In other words, he's not just brushing, but he's picking forcefully enough that his finger is getting sound out of adjacent strings. So you have thumb and index/middle contributing to that C7 sound, for instance.

And also, in the breaks, and sometimes during the sung parts, especially at the end of the sung lines, Stokes is doing something that's very common in old-time music from back in the '20s but became less common as time went on. Instead of his "strum" (what he's playing with his thumb) being bass-chord-bass-chord (or boom-chick-boom-chick) he's playing bass-chord-chord-chord (boom-chick-chick-chick). It gives you the same 4/4 time but a different feel and emphasis. Try it just with your thumb and you'll see what I mean.

I would worry more about practicing to get a good loud and even sound and rhythmic feel before you worry too much about the bass-chord-chord-chord thing; that will be easier to learn once you're relaxed playing it the other way.

Hope this helps
Chris