Topic: Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out

[Pan]

Hi all.

I noticed Alex's' thread on this song on the lyrics department. I've never realized that the original version was in the key of C. This of course, is very tempting for the acoustic CB guitarist. I also didn't know that the trumpet player was Louis Armstrong, so thank you for telling this Alex. You should all also note that Alex provided us with an mp3 in his thread.

I love this song and have been playing it for years so I thought I might share the chord changes, just in case some of you don't know them already.

Intro:

[| F F#dim | C/G A7 | D7 G7 | C (break) |]

Chorus:
[|: C E7 | A7 | F A7 | Dm |
                                  endings 1,2,3, and 6:
| F F#dim | C/G A7 | D7 | D7 G7 :|]

endings 4, 5 and 7 to finish:
| G7 C | D7 G7 | C (G7) :|]

Some players change from D7 to Dm7 on the ending 1, but I don't hear it on this version.

Many musicians play an descending scalar bassline from the beginning to the Dm chord as follows:
 
[|: C  E7/B | A7 A7/G | F A7/E | Dm... 

but in this key with a guitar in standard tuning you'll end up jumping an octave to the Dm, unless of course you start an octave higher to begin with. Experiment.

In the longer ending I'm hearing a Bb note being played on the last beat of the 1st bar on C chord just before moving to D7.  Is it C7 or Bb7 I'm not sure. You can live without it, as it usually is not been played on later versions.

By the way if you are not familiar with it already, check on Scrapper Blackwells absolutely fantastic version on this song. It's on the Juke.

I heard this song for the first time in the Finnish radio some 20+ years ago. I manged to put it on cassette which somebody has since lent and never returned. The radio-announcer claimed that the song was called "Nobody Loves You", and didn't gave any name for the artist. I wonder if any of you ladies or gentlemen happen to know of a piano duo or -trio version of this song (I'm sure there was a double-bass, but can't be sure about the drums) with a male voice singing. If you do, I'd be extremely pleased to know, because I've been looking for it ever since.

Come to think of it, if you know of ANY good versions of this song, why don't you share it? I like to listen to as many versions as possible, of my favorite songs. A postwar jazzy version with Jimmy Witherspoon on vocals and Ben Webster on tenor sax is very nice in my opinion.

[GhostRider]

Pan:

Thanks for this.

One question: how do you finger the F^#dim?

BTW, here's the link to the original thread in the Lyrics section, where the .mp3 can be found.

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=83&topic=669.0

Alex

[Pan]

Hi Alex

Thanks for the link, it was beyond my technical abilities.

As for the F#dim you could try: 2-x-1-2-1-x, or F#-Eb-A-C, fingered: 2nd for F#, barr?ed 1st fing4er, 3rd for A,and the barr?ed 1st finger again for the high C.

If you wish, you could of course also add the high F# on 2nd fret on the 1st string with your little finger.

Pan

[Pan]

Hi again

Something just came into my mind.

If you prefer to voice the F chord with your thumb on the bass, you might want to do the same with F#dim7, doubling the low F# an octave higher: 2-x-4-2-1-x, fingered :Thumb, 4th, 2nd and 1st finger.

In my previous suggestion you also have the possibility to add the D note on the 2nd string, if you want some inner movement within the chord (this comes from the fact that F#dim7 is also D7b9/F# and of course you can add the root).

Pan

[Bunker Hill]

I heard this song for the first time in the Finnish radio some 20+ years ago. I manged to put it on cassette which somebody has since lent and never returned. The radio-announcer claimed that the song was called "Nobody Loves You", and didn't gave any name for the artist. I wonder if any of you ladies or gentlemen happen to know of a piano duo or -trio version of this song (I'm sure there was a double-bass, but can't be sure about the drums) with a male voice singing. If you do, I'd be extremely pleased to know, because I've been looking for it ever since.

Yeah, the great, and today much underrated, Cecil Gant. Nobody Loves You (When You?re   Down and Out), recorded for Dot in about 1947 I think. He's playing the piano and accompanied by unidentified drummer.

[Pan]

Hi Bunker Hill.

That must be it! I checked on Amazon, and indeed Gant has covered this song as "Nobody Loves You". Unfortunately they didn't have any sound samples to check up on, but I'm going to buy the record nevertheless.
You have solved a mystery of over 20 years and I'm extremely grateful to you!!!

Yours

Pan

[Bunker Hill]

That must be it! I checked on Amazon, and indeed Gant has covered this song as "Nobody Loves You". Unfortunately they didn't have any sound samples to check up on, but I'm going to buy the record nevertheless.
You have solved a mystery of over 20 years and I'm extremely grateful to you!!!

I'm sure it's the one. I've got it on a Flyright-type compilation from about that time and I can hear your description of it playing in my head.
Worth checking out Stefan's Flyright discography page:
http://www.wirz.de/music/flyrifrm.htm

[Pan]

Just in case someone else is interested, the song can be found on "Complete Vol. 5 1947 - 1949 [Spanish Import]"
Cecil Gant; Audio CD; ?7.19, on Amazon U.K.

Thanks again

Pan

[Pan]

Hi again

I can now officially confirm that Mr. Bunker Hill was right (not that I really doubted it), and that the Mystery Pianist is in fact Cecil Gant.

If you love this song, please check out his superb version.

You might want to read what All Music Guide to The Blues's Bill Dahl has to say about Gant's "Rock Little Baby" album on Flyright label:

"Rock Little Baby / 1976 / Flyright ****

British record collectors were hip to 1940s boogie and blues pianist Cecil Gant long before American aficionados were (not that there's much recognition of him even now). Flyright assembled this vinyl slab of Gant goodies in loving tribute, with titles like "Screwy Boogie", "Owl Stew", and the stinging "Rock Little Baby" among the upbeat highlights. Gant's "I'm a Good Man, But a Poor Man" has been adapted  by many blues artists since the pianist waxed this one. -Bill Dahl"

Private Gant had a few hits after WWII, apparently he was so busy becoming a R&B star that he didn't even have time to change his clothes; he was known as "the G.I. Sing-Sation". Hes greatest hit was a crooning ballad called "I Wonder". He died at the premature age of 38 in 1952.

My hat off to Mr. Bunker Hill

Pan

[Bunker Hill]

My hat off to Mr. Bunker Hill

No, thank you for reminding me of both the song and Cecil Gant.

This is way off topic but is the Finnish blues magazine Blues News still published? In 1970-1 I used to correspond with Juhani Ritvanen who I think was the editor. But back then I wasn't Bunker Hill.

[Pan]

Hi

Yes, Blues News is still around. If you want to exercise your Finnish check here: http://www.bluesnews.fi/.
Juhani Ritvanen seems to be there also (check on the left on bottom of the page).

Pan

[Pan]

Hi

I thought it would be nice to add Cecil Gant's version of "Nobody Loves You (When You're Down And Out" here. So here's the mp3.

Note the descending bassline.

In the middle of the song Gant slows down the harmonic rhythm by playing only one chord to the bar:
 
| IV | V7 | I | VI7 |,
 
which adds a nice touch in my opinion. He plays in the key of Eb.



Cheers Pan

[Rivers]

Nice, I'd not heard that before. Cecil's voice really cuts through. I also have been chipping away at NKYWYDAO over many years, very similar to Pan's read on it complete with the transit through F#dim. What a shame (IMO) it got so overexposed recently with the result it gets brutally murdered every Saturday night on Yamaha boxes all around the world.

Another real interesting piano tune from that era for which I've been lackadaisically making a guitar arrangement is Mamie Smith's Crazy Blues but I think it warrents another thread.

[MTJ3]

To take this off topic just a bit, the song was reportedly written by Jimmy Cox and published in 1923.  In terms of the pre-War blues pedigree of the song, I note the following recordings: (1) Bobby Leecan, as Blind Bobby Baker (rec. c. June 1927); (2) Pine Top Smith (rec. December 12, 1928); (3) Bessie Smith (rec. May 15, 1929), and (4) Tommie Bradley (rec. July 17, 1931, under the title "When You're Down and Out"). 

I have not hard Leecan's version.  Pine Top's version is a talking blues (!) (in which regard I note that Louis Jordan had a spoken intro in his version).  If you're not familiar with Bessie's doleful version, check it out on www.redhotjazz.com. Bradley's version is robust and appealing.  From his post-rediscovery recordings, it appears to have been a late favorite of Scrapper Blackwell's.  It is unclear where he learned the song.  Although he had some affiliation with Bradley (having, without credit, backed Bradley on "Packing Trunk Blues"), Scrapper was quite knowledgeable about classic or vaudeville blues, and hearing Bessie's version would probably have been unavoidable in the late 1920s and early 1930s. 

I have not consulted Rust, but I have not been able to locate any other recorded pre-War blues or jazz versions of the song.  I would be grateful if anyone could point me to any such versions.

To make this post relevant to this topic, I note that Eric Schoenberg's transcription of this song was published in Sing Out! in probably 1971.  It is an interesting and somewhat athletic transcription with, of course, lots of moving bass.  He substitutes B7 for F#dim (which both share f#, d# and a), and plays the F in the C shape at the 8th fret and the B7 in the E shape at the 7th fret. He supposedly based the transcription on (or at least was inspired by) Bessie's recorded version. I don't know if he ever recorded it, but it's worth "seeing."

[Pan]

Hi Rivers and MTJ3

Thank you both for taking interest in this wonderful song.

I'm especially intrigued  to learn about the other existent pre-war recordings of this song, I've always thought that the Bessie Smith recording was the "original", so to say.

I've never been able to gather much information about the alleged composer Jimmy Cox either, so if anyone could share some information about him too, I'd very much appreciate. Was he maybe a husband to Ida Cox?

Yours

Pan

[MTJ3]

I've never been able to gather much information about the alleged composer Jimmy Cox either, so if anyone could share some information about him too, I'd very much appreciate. Was he maybe a husband to Ida Cox?

Jimmy Cox was a vaudevillean and the father of Gertrude "Baby" Cox.  Baby Cox performed in African-American Broadway shows and was at one time a vocalist for Duke Ellington; she was active in the late '20s and '30s.  As far as I know, they weren't related to Ida Cox, who was married to Jesse Crump, the Texas pianist.  I also haven't been able to track down much else on Jimmy Cox.

[Bunker Hill]

Was he maybe a husband to Ida Cox?

That was Jesse Crump. His interview in Record Changer, March 1952 makes no mention of Jimmy.
When she was 'rediscovered' in 1959 she was ask by Jazz Journal whether Jimmy was any relation at all and she said not.
FWIW Jimmy Cox is also listed as composer of Bessie's 1923 I'm Goin' Back To My Used To Be.

[MTJ3]

Thanks, BH.  I was tempted to say in my prior post that this looks like a job for BH.

Jimmy Cox also has composer credit on "I'm Goin' Out Tonight And Strut My Stuff" by George Williams and Bessie Brown (recorded November 14, 1923) and "Last Go Round Blues" by Sara Martin (recorded c. December 14, 1922).  Annie Meyers, Mary Straine and Eva Taylor also recorded songs with the title "Last Go Round Blues" (on December 4, 1922, August 1922, and February 27, 1923, respectively).  I have not checked to determine if the lyrics of these recordings are the same or similar and have been unable to find composer credit attributions on those recordings.

[Bunker Hill]

Thanks, BH.  I was tempted to say in my prior post that this looks like a job for BH.
Jimmy Cox also has composer credit on "I'm Goin' Out Tonight And Strut My Stuff" by George Williams and Bessie Brown (recorded November 14, 1923) and "Last Go Round Blues" by Sara Martin (recorded c. December 14, 1922).  Annie Meyers, Mary Straine and Eva Taylor also recorded songs with the title "Last Go Round Blues" (on December 4, 1922, August 1922, and February 27, 1923, respectively).  I have not checked to determine if the lyrics of these recordings are the same or similar and have been unable to find composer credit attributions on those recordings.

No thank you. I've been tearing my hair out trying to recall where I've seen some of Cox's compositions listed and your mention of Eva Taylor unlocked it.

Tom Lord in his obsessive book on Clarence Williams (Storyville, 1976) lists some Jimmy Cox compositions published asw sheet music by the Clarence Williams Music Publishing Co. In addition to Last Go Round and Nobody Knows... there's also Long Time Before You See My Face Again and Some Old Day. The version of Last Go Round, as recorded by Eva Taylor is listed as having been registered by Jimmy Cox on May 9, 1922 and the sheet music copyrighted by Williams on September 25, 1922.

However, more importantly for Pan, Jimmy Cox and Williams registered/copyrighted the sheet music of Nobody Knows... the same day, Dec 17 1923. Williams re-copyrighted the sheet music on June 3, 1929, three weeks after Bessie recorded it. He was obviously expecting large music sheet sales off the back of the recording.

[dabluz]

wow, does this mean that eric clapton didn't write this song, i didn't notice any of these names in the credits on his album

[MTJ3]

BH, I KNEW it was a job for you. I have never been able to find the Clarence Williams book for less than I wanted to pay for it (right now, in excess of $100).  Obsession is good in this context.  For those who want a glimpse into the workings of the mind of BH (I suppose a Dr. Evil style laugh would be appropriate here--sorry, Super Bowl Sunday), Eva Taylor was Clarence Williams's wife.  And (turn about's fair play, a glimpse into mine) the grandmother of Clarence Williams III, who was none other than "Linc" in the Mod Squad.  And Clarence was Spencer's brother.

[Bunker Hill]

BH, I KNEW it was a job for you. I have never been able to find the Clarence Williams book for less than I wanted to pay for it (right now, in excess of $100). 

FWIW the writer of the booklets to the three Taylor Document CDs (DOCD 5408-5410, 1995) obviously put his copy of the Lord book to good use, too! It points out that her 1923 You Missed A Good Woman When You Picked All Over Me was reworked by Tampa Red as You Missed A Good MAN (When You Picked All Over Me).

[ROOTSANDBLUESLADY]

Has anyone heard the version by Martin, Bogan and Armstrong. They have it on an album and I just bought it as a compilation with That Old Gang Of Mine and Martin, Bogan And Armstrong.  I love it because of the lyrics, especially "death knocking on your door tapping yankee doodleedoo."  Looks like they took the original version and ran with it.

Rochelle

[Pan]

Hi all

I just came by Creole George Guesnon's "Goodbye Good Luck To You" from 1947, with Little Brother Montgomery on piano, if the YT video is to be believed.  The song, after the verse, appears to be a remake of Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out", with some little variations. I don't know who the other musicians are, but Guesnon was a guitarist, among other things, according to Wikipedia.



FWIW Dixon, Godrich & Rye state that Guesnon & Montgomery recorded the same (or at least a song with the same name) in 1936 as well, this time with only Montgomery on the accompaniment. Spotify has versions of the tune, but they don't provide recording dates or any other information.

Cheers

Pan

[David Kaatz]

... Creole George Guesnon's "Goodbye Good Luck To You" from 1947...

The vibrato on the guitar here sounds like a lap or pedal steel, but a remarkably precise player if so. Quite an unusual sound for the genre it seems to me.

[Pan]

... Creole George Guesnon's "Goodbye Good Luck To You" from 1947...

The vibrato on the guitar here sounds like a lap or pedal steel, but a remarkably precise player if so. Quite an unusual sound for the genre it seems to me.

Good point Dave! Probably some professional studio musician?  I couldn't find any information on the line-up on the internet.

Anyway, here's their 1936 version of the tune.



Cheers

Pan

[Pan]

Hi all.

A question:

Some sources, including the French and German Wikipedia state, that the blues singer Julia Lee recorded the song as early as 1927.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_Knows_You_When_You're_Down_and_Out

https://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_Knows_You_When_You're_Down_and_Out

http://www.keeponliving.at/song/nobody_knows_you_when_you're_down_and_out.html

However, the Blues & Gospel Records 1890 - 1943 lists some of her songs being recorded prewar, some of them published and some not, but NNYWYDaO isn't listed among them.

I haven't been able to find any credible proof that she did the song on record in 1927, so I'm starting to believe that this is a mistake reproducing on the above sites. Do you have any further information on the matter?

She did, however, record the song in 1947, with her own piano accompaniment, I believe, and she did quite nicely, in my opinion. Here's a YouTube video of it:



On a side note, I've made a YouTube playlist of different versions of the tune; it's completely subjective, and not all the versions are much related to country blues, but you can have a look, if you can stomach another version of the old war horse

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNEJV1lNKyyV8UD5RJ3qlnwBCeOaYyd9G

Cheers

Pan

[Stuart]

Hi Pan:

I couldn't find anything that indicates that Julia Lee recorded "Nobody Knows..." in 1927. My guess is that "27" (the year of her first recordings) was a typo for "47," the year the song was recorded, and the error was repeated as you point out. "Nobody Knows..." is not listed among the titles on "The Chronological Julia Lee - 1927-1946."

http://www.allmusic.com/album/1927-1946-mw0000673988

The only other possibility that comes to mind is that she recorded "Nobody Knows..." with another band on a record that wasn't available for re-issue, but I think that would be noted.

[Pan]

Thanks Stuart,

The Chronological Julia Lee recordings seem to confirm our doubts.

Cheers

Pan

[Pan]

Hi all

I thought that some of you might be interested in reading a little more on Jimmy Cox, and seeing his picture. If so, check out Elijah Wald's "songobiography" article about the tune. You'll also find his version of the song there.

http://www.elijahwald.com/songblog/down-and-out/

Here's a YouTube video of the Dave Van Ronk version, mentioned in the article.



Cheers

Pan

[eric]

I sure like Dave's accompaniments, consistently great.  Lot's of interesting stuff on Wald's site.

[cpazmandi]

Hi Everyone,

I've been playing the guitar for a while but I started learning the fingerpicking folk blues style only recently. As a beginner I soon came across Nobody Knows You When You're Down by Scrapper Blackwell. I couldn't really find a tutorial (on youtube) on how Scrapper played the song so I gave myself a try and learnt the song by ear, based on a couple of tips and facts I found on Scrapper's picking technique and the song itself.
I'm sharing my video tutorial here, I hope some of you will find it useful. All comments are welcome to improve it!
Thanks,

jepper